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HGould

Whats actually going on?

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If it’s shown that the powers that be have got any interest in developing young riders !  Bet they couldn’t name half of them. I’ll do a whole meeting on Coffee !! 

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9 minutes ago, Mike.Butler said:

I regret that the iow aren't running; but unless a club can run at a professional level (i.e championship), then they ride in a 3rd tier that should definitely in my opinion be a division that the likes of Buxton can be competitive in. I said a few years back that the national DEVELOPMENT league has been hi-jacked by dropping down clubs who were paying riders more money than should have been allowed at that level. Hence we lost stalwarts Buxton after years of struggle.

It seems the IOW (and possibly Mildenhall too), fall between the two levels and it's clear there aren't enough other stand-alone clubs left for a league at their ideal level. (in fact have there ever been?)..  I think on this occasion the right decision has prevailed...Winning the 3rd division should not be the priority of any of the competing teams...it should be about development..

Fantastic post well thought out and a spot on assessment of how it should be

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11 hours ago, Mike.Butler said:

I regret that the iow aren't running; but unless a club can run at a professional level (i.e championship), then they ride in a 3rd tier that should definitely in my opinion be a division that the likes of Buxton can be competitive in. I said a few years back that the national DEVELOPMENT league has been hi-jacked by dropping down clubs who were paying riders more money than should have been allowed at that level. Hence we lost stalwarts Buxton after years of struggle.

It seems the IOW (and possibly Mildenhall too), fall between the two levels and it's clear there aren't enough other stand-alone clubs left for a league at their ideal level. (in fact have there ever been?)..  I think on this occasion the right decision has prevailed...Winning the 3rd division should not be the priority of any of the competing teams...it should be about development..

Whilst i agree to some point that winning the league shouldn't be the be all and end all when running in the NL there still hasvto be aspirations of success otherwise we end with the nonsense school sports day ethos of everyone gets a prize. 

The cut limit still doesn't prevent the better funded clubs luring the most promising riders on board and still leaving disparity between the competing levels. 

Had the averages been reduced gradually and a decreasing cap on max averages like no over 8 this year no over 7 next there would have been a gradual shift of riders at the top out of the league, middle order riders moving up and probably 2/3 new riders per team per season.  

To encourage clubs to look at development of upcoming riders they could have started giving extra track time and coaching in readiness. 

What we currently have is a glut of new riders this season with experienced heat leaders in the same side, next year the current crop will be out and new inexperienced riders in with the heat leaders staying put.

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34 minutes ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Whilst i agree to some point that winning the league shouldn't be the be all and end all when running in the NL there still hasvto be aspirations of success otherwise we end with the nonsense school sports day ethos of everyone gets a prize. 

The cut limit still doesn't prevent the better funded clubs luring the most promising riders on board and still leaving disparity between the competing levels. 

Had the averages been reduced gradually and a decreasing cap on max averages like no over 8 this year no over 7 next there would have been a gradual shift of riders at the top out of the league, middle order riders moving up and probably 2/3 new riders per team per season.  

To encourage clubs to look at development of upcoming riders they could have started giving extra track time and coaching in readiness. 

What we currently have is a glut of new riders this season with experienced heat leaders in the same side, next year the current crop will be out and new inexperienced riders in with the heat leaders staying put.

Another good post but some clubs will never be encouraged to give extra track time and coaching to riders . I have lost count of the time's juniors have there spot at the end reduced because a senior wants to test something. He then proceeds to do a start and 20 wheelies.

please don't think the current crop of riders and those just behind them lack experience in racing. These groups have been at it for year racing nearly every week at amateur meetings and British youth level . Admittedly some are better than others but that's how things work but I don't see any of the dreaded wobblers everyone is worrying about.

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1 minute ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Another good post but some clubs will never be encouraged to give extra track time and coaching to riders . I have lost count of the time's juniors have there spot at the end reduced because a senior wants to test something. He then proceeds to do a start and 20 wheelies.

please don't think the current crop of riders and those just behind them lack experience in racing. These groups have been at it for year racing nearly every week at amateur meetings and British youth level . Admittedly some are better than others but that's how things work but I don't see any of the dreaded wobblers everyone is worrying about.

Agreed that the effort from clubs to develop the next crop can be found lacking which is why it should be incentivised in some way. 

Ive only seen one or two true wobblers named but how many of the current signings would have been in contention at the old points limit? From an amateur level riders would need to be in the top half of the open grade to be capable. Fine for this year? but next year the standard available will be even lower with available 3 pointers the bottom half of the open class, those who haven't increased thier averages this season and a few graduating juniors who will probably get to number 1 at the first set of averages. 

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5 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Another good post but some clubs will never be encouraged to give extra track time and coaching to riders . I have lost count of the time's juniors have there spot at the end reduced because a senior wants to test something. He then proceeds to do a start and 20 wheelies.

please don't think the current crop of riders and those just behind them lack experience in racing. These groups have been at it for year racing nearly every week at amateur meetings and British youth level . Admittedly some are better than others but that's how things work but I don't see any of the dreaded wobblers everyone is worrying about.

Since Arena closed, I have been watching National League almost every week.  I have been surprised at how fast they are and how good the racing

has been.  Very entertaining to me.  I get a lot of interest in watching new riders develop and trying to pick future winners.  Over many years I have

followed the game at every level and all have been entertaining to me for different reasons. 

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1 hour ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Whilst i agree to some point that winning the league shouldn't be the be all and end all when running in the NL there still hasvto be aspirations of success otherwise we end with the nonsense school sports day ethos of everyone gets a prize. 

The cut limit still doesn't prevent the better funded clubs luring the most promising riders on board and still leaving disparity between the competing levels. 

Had the averages been reduced gradually and a decreasing cap on max averages like no over 8 this year no over 7 next there would have been a gradual shift of riders at the top out of the league, middle order riders moving up and probably 2/3 new riders per team per season. 

I don't think this would work at all, in 2019 there were 15 riders on 8+ averages & another 4 on 7+. I can't see the Championship clubs bringing on 19 new riders each season, so all that would happen is promising riders being lost to the sport!

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8 minutes ago, East End Fan said:

Since Arena closed, I have been watching National League almost every week.  I have been surprised at how fast they are and how good the racing

has been.  Very entertaining to me.  I get a lot of interest in watching new riders develop and trying to pick future winners.  Over many years I have

followed the game at every level and all have been entertaining to me for different reasons. 

The NL has always been a hidden gem of ability and entertainment. Yes its got its faults but far less than the higher divisions which is why is a huge shame that it is being torn down to reduce the threat to higher divisions and only serve them rather than serve the riders and existing fans.  There is a minimum standard people are prepared to pay for regularly and especially at current rates. I fear this year or next it will be tough to get £13-15 for a lesser product at stand-alone meetings especially with so few meetings to generate any bond/interest. 

Not sure genuinely how many clubs could accommodate double headers for two levels and would get support with price increases to fund it. I remember Peterborough recently asked opinion of would and extra £5 be ok for a NL 2nd fixture and was met with a resounding no.

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1 minute ago, szkocjasid said:

I don't think this would work at all, in 2019 there were 15 riders on 8+ averages & another 4 on 7+. I can't see the Championship clubs bringing on 19 new riders each season, so all that would happen is promising riders being lost to the sport!

Whilst i agree that would partly then be for the higher leagues to accommodate them and would mean the genuine riders get chances and those that progress to 7+ in NL but cant go further dont remain in it for too long blocking up spaces. 

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Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your comments and posts which I appreciate and read with great interest.

I would like to say that in order to have a virtually amateur 3rd tier of speedway it needs to be either funded by the governing body or the governing body wave all its charges. The issue to put on any speedway meeting under the BSPL is that it is now a business and as a business it has have revenue and directors must act in the best interest of that business. How does the BSPL raise revenue? Through match fees, sales of rights (TV) and sponsorship.

What do clubs have to pay excluding travel and riders points money and assume that all staff volunteer.... well BSPA Fees, SC license fees, Referee Fees, Insurance, Fixed insurance, Medical ambulance, Medical Paramedic plus advertising budget, program and so on.... so with everything before the plus.. for the IOW to stage speedway it is £1325.... oh then there is stadium rental on top of that too and this is before we can advertise, pay a rider home and away........

So let's look at the options for NL in my view to make it work.

1. Purely amateur (no paid riders as in motocross) and BSPL use money from TV deals to cover all costs associated with putting the meeting on. Entry for fans for say £5 and perhaps cover the clubs stadium rental.

2. Purely amateur and riders pay to enter (to cover costs would mean each rider for a 7 rider team had to pay £94.60 home and away) and the club is responsible for all costs which then raises some revenue for BSPL - Entry for fans for say £5 and perhaps cover the clubs stadium rental.

3. Structured pay scales, proper sellable product, with fans prepared to be entertained, a real structure to move forward, step by step progress, a club to be proud of.

My personal view is the only one able to work is number 3... 1 and 2 will always be seen as an overhead and the same as the current push toward second teams in double headers. My fear is that 7 riders teams will be reduced to 5, then 4 and guess what we are back 20 years but without riders and promoters who want to support it.

As for Buxton being drawn back in to the league... the opportunity is there but not taken, and I understand will not be either.

As always keep safe and stay positive.

All the best

Barry 

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13 hours ago, Mike.Butler said:

I regret that the iow aren't running; but unless a club can run at a professional level (i.e championship), then they ride in a 3rd tier that should definitely in my opinion be a division that the likes of Buxton can be competitive in. I said a few years back that the national DEVELOPMENT league has been hi-jacked by dropping down clubs who were paying riders more money than should have been allowed at that level. Hence we lost stalwarts Buxton after years of struggle.

It seems the IOW (and possibly Mildenhall too), fall between the two levels and it's clear there aren't enough other stand-alone clubs left for a league at their ideal level. (in fact have there ever been?)..  I think on this occasion the right decision has prevailed...Winning the 3rd division should not be the priority of any of the competing teams...it should be about development..

Or maybe they just like the NL and Grass routes Speedway keeping wage demands in check and taking riders from MFS into league racing and seeing them spread into senior leagues. It’s not all about Finance for everyone, for some ‘ethos’ is just as important. 

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24 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

I don't think this would work at all, in 2019 there were 15 riders on 8+ averages & another 4 on 7+. I can't see the Championship clubs bringing on 19 new riders each season, so all that would happen is promising riders being lost to the sport!

That is exactly why the problem is not just isolated to the NL!

There needs to be a proper facilitation of British riders across all leagues that goes much further than the Rising Star programme. All that has done is push out other Brits like Mountain & Sarjeant and give Premiership places to riders not ready yet like Kinsley & arguably Palin. Whereas lowly assessed and unproven foreigners are still prevalent. In years gone by we've seen numerous NL heat leaders struggle to get Championship places or getting dumped at the earliest opportunity. There are persistent riders still about like Greaves and Hume (hopefully the Rising Star programme helps Danyon but what about when he averages 4.5+?) which I have admiration for, but too many others have been lost to the sport. 

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28 minutes ago, barrybishop said:

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your comments and posts which I appreciate and read with great interest.

I would like to say that in order to have a virtually amateur 3rd tier of speedway it needs to be either funded by the governing body or the governing body wave all its charges. The issue to put on any speedway meeting under the BSPL is that it is now a business and as a business it has have revenue and directors must act in the best interest of that business. How does the BSPL raise revenue? Through match fees, sales of rights (TV) and sponsorship.

What do clubs have to pay excluding travel and riders points money and assume that all staff volunteer.... well BSPA Fees, SC license fees, Referee Fees, Insurance, Fixed insurance, Medical ambulance, Medical Paramedic plus advertising budget, program and so on.... so with everything before the plus.. for the IOW to stage speedway it is £1325.... oh then there is stadium rental on top of that too and this is before we can advertise, pay a rider home and away........

So let's look at the options for NL in my view to make it work.

1. Purely amateur (no paid riders as in motocross) and BSPL use money from TV deals to cover all costs associated with putting the meeting on. Entry for fans for say £5 and perhaps cover the clubs stadium rental.

2. Purely amateur and riders pay to enter (to cover costs would mean each rider for a 7 rider team had to pay £94.60 home and away) and the club is responsible for all costs which then raises some revenue for BSPL - Entry for fans for say £5 and perhaps cover the clubs stadium rental.

3. Structured pay scales, proper sellable product, with fans prepared to be entertained, a real structure to move forward, step by step progress, a club to be proud of.

My personal view is the only one able to work is number 3... 1 and 2 will always be seen as an overhead and the same as the current push toward second teams in double headers. My fear is that 7 riders teams will be reduced to 5, then 4 and guess what we are back 20 years but without riders and promoters who want to support it.

As for Buxton being drawn back in to the league... the opportunity is there but not taken, and I understand will not be either.

As always keep safe and stay positive.

All the best

Barry 

Isn't this what is now in place at Berwick, Edinburgh and Newcastle, where riders can move up from 125cc in the NJL all the way to the Championship? And to a certain extent with Kent, Eastbourne and Leicester, although I'm not sure how things stand with the SJL / MJL.

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14 hours ago, Mike.Butler said:

I regret that the iow aren't running; but unless a club can run at a professional level (i.e championship), then they ride in a 3rd tier that should definitely in my opinion be a division that the likes of Buxton can be competitive in. I said a few years back that the national DEVELOPMENT league has been hi-jacked by dropping down clubs who were paying riders more money than should have been allowed at that level. Hence we lost stalwarts Buxton after years of struggle.

It seems the IOW (and possibly Mildenhall too), fall between the two levels and it's clear there aren't enough other stand-alone clubs left for a league at their ideal level. (in fact have there ever been?)..  I think on this occasion the right decision has prevailed...Winning the 3rd division should not be the priority of any of the competing teams...it should be about development..

I don't totally agree and would argue that as a result of reducing standards we have lost Isle of Wight (and that loss should not be underestimated).  In addition, I am of the opinion that there were other reasons for Buxton finishing - not least that Sheffield were to ride on the same day. 

To me, its a matter of compromise (and indeed always has been). The double up clubs - particularly if they run double headers - want the league for development without the same need to attract paying fans. The stand alone teams still have an interest in development but need to make the product good enough to pull customers in. The NDL has, for years, achieved such a compromise but that has been torpedoed for 2021 by the BSPL imposing a points limit without any discussion or negotiation - its a been a case of take it or leave it. In my view - and I suspect in Barry Bishop's - that is what is most unacceptable. 

There seems to me a slight contradiction in what you are saying, too. You indicate that the league should permit a competitive Buxton to join, but then go on to state that winning the league - ie being competitive - should not be a priority.  I'd point out that the latter view does not seem to be shared by double up club promoters, given that the NDL has been won for 2 out of the last 3 seasons by their teams.

The way I see it, if the league is about development and not competition there is no need to reduce the points limit at all. Retaining 39 does not prevent the double up teams from putting out their developing riders, but it means that the product - and hence the ability to pull in customer   - is not weakened for both Mildenhall and Isle of Wight.

On a final note - and as I have said before - it is nonsense to suggest or even imply  that the NDL has not performed its development function in the past. Every single British rider in Championship and Premiership teams started in the third tier, as did our GP representatives Tai Woffinden and Robert Lambert.

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1 hour ago, Sings4Speedway said:

The NL has always been a hidden gem of ability and entertainment. Yes its got its faults but far less than the higher divisions which is why is a huge shame that it is being torn down to reduce the threat to higher divisions and only serve them rather than serve the riders and existing fans.  There is a minimum standard people are prepared to pay for regularly and especially at current rates. I fear this year or next it will be tough to get £13-15 for a lesser product at stand-alone meetings especially with so few meetings to generate any bond/interest. 

Not sure genuinely how many clubs could accommodate double headers for two levels and would get support with price increases to fund it. I remember Peterborough recently asked opinion of would and extra £5 be ok for a NL 2nd fixture and was met with a resounding no.

It will be interesting to see how many times "30 heats of Speedway" actually get completed for those who run the double headers..

Maybe they should put the NL meeting on first? That would provide some motivation to ensure all done I am sure..

Simon Wigg always said there should be 'The Starter' before 'The Main Course'...

And if an argument against it is there may be delays to the main meeting due to a possibility of more fallers, then these lads shouldn't be riding in the first place at a team level..

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