Who are the Rising Stars?

[Najjer 2,889]

27 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

 

Thing is for me the plan is supposed to last 5 years; has Vatcher got a conveyer belt system on the IOW churning out these young kids because when they put two rising stars into each side next year that will require approximately 36 rising stars each year for the next four years and as Najjer states they will (or should) finally fall off the end/or out of; the Rising Stars (RS) programme. Will we end up with two/four 12 year olds racing each other on 125's in protected heats by year 5... what's the guarantee of supply of these RS riders... suits a few clubs now but the circumstances will change for sure

So a club picks up a young 3* RS and he hits the ground running and after the second set of averages he ends up on a 4.5 average and two other (not RS) riders at the club end up with slightly lower 4 point averages then the RS will move into the main body of the team at say number 2; so the club will have a couple of possible choices I assume; which will be to keep things as they are; (as the build for the other 6 riders in the team is still around the 38 mark or possibly higher if another main body rider puts a point and a half on his average in the same period) so unless one of the new reserves has dropped from say a 6 to a 4 they could drop this guy and bring in another 5/6 point rider "Like for Like" to push the RS back into reserve or if there is no one available to bring in they could drop the RS and bring another 3* rider in "Like for Like" for this new one to drop back into reserve to push the more senior rider back into the main body... a minor injury to a RS rider will be fun? (wrist sprain and 4 weeks out) Do you bring in another guest RS rider to his rating so a 3* or less to fill in at No 2 (which has happened in the past when NL riders come into the main body of the team as RR) or can you bring in a guest at the 4.5 average and then there is everyone's favourite RR and effectively as the lowest rated rider rider at 3* who gets the rider replacement rides... would be the one above and three for the two reserves in normal circumstances but the 3* rider is in effect the lowest rated rider in the team supposedly (is that regardless of average and that brings in all sorts of contradictions?)… 

End of the season your 3* rider ends up with a 5.01 average does he move up one bracket to a 4* rider or your 2* rider ends up with a 4.01 average does move to a 3* or a 4* rating the following season. After three seasons and your RS rider moves to a low 5 average does he stay on the programme for another 2 years or is that is he's off the programme and fending for himself then his average takes a tumble year 4 and he drops to a 3 average can he re-enter the programme or is that it he hasn't made it "good night Biffa" its over... One young Newcastle rider ended up on an average around 5 due to reasonable home performances then got injured and came back to early which destroyed his confidence and he ended up on a 2 average by the end of the next season!!! what gives in this scenario? the comments on here will be "Oh they have dropped poor "Tom, Dick, Harry, Whoever" and what a rotten lot at "Club A ;B; C"; they are in doing that" some short memories across this sport for sure... the question is can they come down the star rating system as well as go up the ratings?

Letting this run for a season is fine as this year is a good opportunity to try something different and see what happens next year "going forward" as stated but its been tried before in the top league and didn't last the 3 years it was proposed for (and I can even remember now what that idea was called to bring on young British talent) and as much as I would like this to succeed I have severe doubts. This is a transitional year due to Covid and my preference would nave been to reduce the Team Build to 38 in the Top league and possibly as low as 25 in the Championship; let the averages work through the system and both leagues build to 42.5 next year with the 1.7 average conversion multiplier used between the leagues; the whole thing needs to reset; or possibly this year one big league or North and South leagues building to about 35 points and again get things reset from an even starting point 2022...

Looks like the "Claudio Ranieri Syndrome" has took a hold of the supporting cast of the BSPL... The Tinkermen...

Regards
THJ

Good post - one alarming point though that maybe I have missed but I had just assumed that the rising star would stay in the no.7 berth all season no matter what? Otherwise I’m not really sure how the graded ‘rising star’ is any help to the progression of British riders. How many RS will make a good start to the season, see their average rise and then shafted to sign someone else once they have a couple of bad meetings?

Maybe they should rebrand the RS name and call it BS instead. Obviously standing for British Star and not anything else  

[enotian 562]

1 hour ago, Najjer said:

It’ll be interesting to see what happens when/of say a rider really over achieves and scores highly.

Do they move into the main body of the side?
Do they stay at reserve?
Do they get regraded at the end of the season?
Do they end up no longer being a ‘rising star’?
Is the 5 year plan for the current crop of riders along with additions or is the 5 year plan for the teams meaning that riders could be removed from the system after say 1 or 2 years once they reach a certain level?

Or more importantly... Are we just going to be making it up as we go along?

But I think there has to be an element of making it up as they go along doesn't there?  2022 will all depend on relative progress in 2021.  If it's a huge success and enough youngsters have progressed beyond the gradings then the plans might (need to) change. 

The idea is that there is a mechanism to provide a pathway for young British riders into the professional leagues over a sustained period.  That has to be preferential to team places going to established riders on low averages. Whether or not this is the best way to do it doesn't matter as long as it works.

What would be interesting how long does a rider get to progress? Some on the list already have considerable experience.

[Ringitsneck 348]

56 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

as i read it there are no consequences you either accept a place on the scheme with the terms and conditions applied which means as i understand it protected places for british youth riders. or you dont accept it and have to take your chances with every other rider . as i understand it there are are no sanctions you can still ride just not in the protected scheme. i think it can work going forward just needs time to settle 2022 will be the telling year as its first full season under the regs as stated. bonus for is we wont have to go to Edinburgh 

Then you need to read it again. Any rider refusing a position will be taken off the scheme, therefore being ineligible for a team place in a reserve position , basically your barred ! . A brand new youth rider is highly unlikely be offered a team place in a 1 to 5 .

Lets hope they see the error of there ways and change things when a few of the less desperate , or less wealthy kids, say no I’m not going to do a 500 mile round trip to ride at a club I don’t want to be at and I’ll sit out the year or go moto crossing instead.

 

[Sings4Speedway 3,247]

Is it just me or is it all just toooo complicated and we already have enough complications  with averages but we do at least partly understand them so why not just set it as newcomers to the CL

2.00 - rider who has completed 30 NL meetings or fewer

2.50 - rider under 23

3.00 - newcomer who has completed 30+ NL meetings or over 23.

from then on they just have the average the achieve with above minimums applied. For PL reserves need to achieve the required minimum standard via conversion rate as they do now job done. Im all for promoting British and making them more attractive signings makes sense but not if it makes it all too easy. The reason more Aussies succeed than Brits is because they have no choice, its make it or fly home.

[TotallyHonestJohn 3,078]

32 minutes ago, Najjer said:

Good post - one alarming point though that maybe I have missed but I had just assumed that the rising star would stay in the no.7 berth all season no matter what? Otherwise I’m not really sure how the graded ‘rising star’ is any help to the progression of British riders. How many RS will make a good start to the season, see their average rise and then shafted to sign someone else once they have a couple of bad meetings?

Maybe they should rebrand the RS name and call it BS instead. Obviously standing for British Star and not anything else  

I'm only guessing to be fair but I cant see it working any other way or you could end up with a super strong reserve a No 7 and just think what an advantage that could be; especially at home... and was this not the failing with the last "Support Young British Riders" plan that was tried in the old Elite/Premier League...

EDIT:

Just think of Leon Flint at Berwick a Rising Star if there ever was one and a brilliant prospect: then keep him at No 7 all season... he would get 7 rides every week at home and end up with an average around the 8 mark? then what happens to him next season, 4* because I would suggest he would find it difficult going from No 7 to No 5 or 1 the following season... you want these young kids to progress and learn the trade and even Robert Lambert had a couple of years working through the ranks to get where he is today... Might happen to one in a thousand young kids where they go stratospheric but you need to restrict them slightly but keep setting goals and challenges...

29 minutes ago, enotian said:

But I think there has to be an element of making it up as they go along doesn't there?  2022 will all depend on relative progress in 2021.  If it's a huge success and enough youngsters have progressed beyond the gradings then the plans might (need to) change. 

The idea is that there is a mechanism to provide a pathway for young British riders into the professional leagues over a sustained period.  That has to be preferential to team places going to established riders on low averages. Whether or not this is the best way to do it doesn't matter as long as it works.

What would be interesting how long does a rider get to progress? Some on the list already have considerable experience.

Should there be an element of making it up?

Not really; not for me anyway; there should be some methodology in the process; some plan; then promote the trial and yes see where it goes for the start of 2022... but it has to be built on solid foundations first; but this is getting blown out of the water before it starts; albeit on limited information mind...

Is it preferential?

What about the likes of Hurry; Roynon; Wright; Sarjeant; Lamber (S) or Lawson (W) who are all British and whatever their averages are you need riders available with averages right across the spectrum otherwise the big spenders would have a team full of 9 and 10 point average riders and build to 70 points; so these lower averaged riders are required when you build to a capped number... I am not saying they have any more rights to ride than say Daniel Gappmaier; Fernando Garcia; Paco Castagna; Sam Jensen or Kasper Andersen whose averages are all very similar; but the former are British...

Just saying like...

Regards
THJ

Edited February 1, 2021 by TotallyHonestJohn
Edited for accuracy

[ruffdiamond 6,115]

Just picking up on S4S last point about flying,,, am pretty sure that cheap flights in and out of Britain might not be around in the future. So flitting in and out for overseas riders may become a thing of the past, giving British youngsters more opportunities to fill vacated places from ageing British/British based riders?

But other than that, a can't make head nor tail of this rising stars thing.

Edited February 1, 2021 by ruffdiamond

[phillwhitewasmad 1,487]

36 minutes ago, Ringitsneck said:

Then you need to read it again. Any rider refusing a position will be taken off the scheme, therefore being ineligible for a team place in a reserve position , basically your barred ! . A brand new youth rider is highly unlikely be offered a team place in a 1 to 5

yes i know that and understand it but they are offering to protect the position for scheme members its up to the rider as to whether they accept it. why should a rider who accepts all the terms and conditions of the scheme which are numerous be overlooked just because another rider dosent want to join it because his draft track isnt near to home. for me its a positive step granted their could be some riders who end up having to travel further than they wanted but its the tough harsh reality 

your not barred from riding just taking up rising star positions a rider can still ply their trade in national league to help them get to a level where they can get a 1 to 5 place. it a harder route but its a personal decision .

Edited February 1, 2021 by phillwhitewasmad

[enotian 562]

27 minutes ago, TotallyHonestJohn said:

I'm only guessing to be fair but I cant see it working any other way or you could end up with a super strong reserve a No 7 and just think what an advantage that could be; especially at home... and was this not the failing with the last "Support Young British Riders" plan that was tried in the old Elite/Premier League...

Should there be an element of making it up?

Not really; not for me anyway; there should be some methodology in the process; some plan; then promote the trial and yes see where it goes for the start of 2022... but it has to be built on solid foundations first; but this is getting blown out of the water before it starts; albeit on limited information mind...

Is it preferential?

What about the likes of Hurry; Roynon; Wright; Sarjeant; Lamber (S) or Lawson (W) who are all British and whatever their averages are you need riders available with averages right across the spectrum otherwise the big spenders would have a team full of 9 and 10 point average riders and build to 70 points; so these lower averaged riders are required when you build to a capped number... I am not saying they have any more rights to ride than say Daniel Gappmaier; Fernando Garcia; Paco Castagna; Sam Jensen or Kasper Andersen whose averages are all very similar; but the former are British...

Just saying like...

Regards
THJ

Yes there should be a criteria but equally if that criteria leads to a dysfunctional position in 2022 or beyond then you'd amend it wouldn't you.  Like you say if the pipeline dries up within those years you might revert to one per team.  Or if it's a huge success and there's more supply then you might increase to 3 graded team places for Rising Stars. Never paint yourself into a corner.

Surely giving an opportunity to a kid who might go on to be successful internationally and even raise the profile of the sport in this country is preferable to giving another shot to a 3 point 30 year old who is never going to develop? It's product R&D and I don't see giving a team place to a youngster ahead of a low average old timer as reducing the quality, although I'll reserve judgement on that until I've seen Alcock in action [not a euphemism] 

Cynically you might also consider supply and demand.  If there's a greater supply of riders then those riders can't demand as much. Either way the decision is obvious. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by enotian

[Fromafar 10,359]

Think Leon Flint is a good example of where it could go wrong, another being Drew Kemp.Big average do they just move to 4star in 2022.

[TotallyHonestJohn 3,078]

25 minutes ago, enotian said:

Yes there should be a criteria but equally if that criteria leads to a dysfunctional position in 2022 or beyond then you'd amend it wouldn't you.  Like you say if the pipeline dries up within those years you might revert to one per team.  Or if it's a huge success and there's more supply then you might increase to 3 graded team places for Rising Stars. Never paint yourself into a corner.

Surely giving an opportunity to a kid who might go on to be successful internationally and even raise the profile of the sport in this country is preferable to giving another shot to a 3 point 30 year old who is never going to develop? It's product R&D and I don't see giving a team place to a youngster ahead of a low average old timer as reducing the quality, although I'll reserve judgement on that until I've seen Alcock in action [not a euphemism] 

Cynically you might also consider supply and demand.  If there's a greater supply of riders then those riders can't demand as much. Either way the decision is obvious. 

Alcock... giggidy giggidy...

Yep brilliant.... and we bring on all these young kids and they become successful internationally and what's the first thig they will do... no prizes for guessing it will be Poland here I come for the big money so either way you get screwed over... you pay to watch your club to bring them on and get them to an international standard and what's the first thing they do? Go international... I think I am in the Cynical camp... sorry

Regards
THJ

[phillwhitewasmad 1,487]

2 hours ago, enotian said:

So like any other rider then.  You get offered a deal and either accept it or reject it. I guess all riders have preferred options but not all of them materialise.

Yes there is no protection of your preference on place you want to ride . It's the places they are protecting so if a team has first pick in the draft system and pick rider A he can then decide if he wants to accept or not . If the rider says no the place shall remain open to another rising star and rider A drops out of the scheme. There is no deal to do other than travel money as points payment is set.

I would suggest though that prior to any announcement a team would of approached a rider before hand to make sure he's happy going there .

[phillwhitewasmad 1,487]

2 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Out of interest what happens if the rising star fails to get to the next star level at the end of the season.Will he still be a rising star for 5 years if he fails to improve over the years or will he get “dumped”.

There is nothing to say a rider has to get to the next star in a season bu there is a time and age limit on it at this moment. As I understand it once a rider has completed a minimum amount of years in he professional leagues he will lose the star grading protection of riding at reserve. National league is not classed as professional as I understand it

[phillwhitewasmad 1,487]

7 hours ago, Ringitsneck said:

Whilst it’s about time they encouraged the kids into teams this scheme has some major flaws. The lad I help is wondering why he signed for his local club if he’s not going to ride for them because of the draft system? And if he doesn’t do as he’s told by the scheme  have you read the consequences ?

In fairness he probably signed prior to the announcement and did so in good faith. Also if has signed as an asset there's nothing to stop him riding for them at some point in the future. To be honest though why would a young rider sign for any club as an asset unless they have something tangible offer or promise in front of them. 
it's going to be difficult for many riders who want to ride at a specific track but end up elsewhere. 
unfortunately if British speedway doesn't protect the places now it never will. Lots of riders and parents have constantly asked for more help and protection and now it's here people are moaning because some riders may have to go somewhere they don't want to be. 

[proud panther 1,505]

The last draft scheme was supposed to be sorted by teams picking who they wanted, & £10 per point. I can assure everybody that neither rule was implemented.

[szkocjasid 3,020]

9 hours ago, bigred said:

Can't see how Buckley can be the same grade as Perks / Bates & a higher grade than Kemp / Flint!