Flemming Graversen and GM dispute

[ONTWOMINUTES 122]

Google , fgm engine images and you'll see. 

[Grand Central 2,654]

If GM had a winnable case that they would not be sending out pointless letters or issuing unenforceable threats.

Pretty pathetic.

[Humphrey Appleby 13,951]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:50 AM, racers and royals said:

Google translation of Speedweek article.

What is the difference between a GM and an FGM? That is the question. The Italian plant GM claims that the Dane Flemming Graversen copied their Speedway engine.
Flemming Graversen is a sought-after tuner in the Speedway GP scene. The Dane from Varde on the west coast of Jutland in southwest Denmark had his greatest success with Australian Jason Doyle in 2017 when he became Speedway World Champion in Melbourne. With the cylinder head developed by Graversen on a GM engine.

In the meantime, Graversen has developed its own motor with the FGM, which recently openly aroused the discontent of the Italian manufacturer and thus competitor GM (Giuseppe Marzotto). At the end of last year, GM wrote a letter to all tuners and drivers in the Speedway GP series, demanding that their cooperation with Flemming Graversen be terminated. It is alleged that the Dane illegally copied their technology and then made perfect copies of their GM engines themselves.

GM representatives complained about unfair practices on the part of Graversen and postulated a 100 percent reproduction of their product without their consent. According to their account, the Italians had acquired one of the engines that Flemming Graversen had built from scratch and subjected it to a thorough examination in their factory.

In their opinion, the FGM is a complete copy of your own GM. As supposed evidence, they posted photos of parts of the GM and FGM for comparison. According to the Italians, there was only one difference between the two engines, namely the lack of embossed symbols of the GM brand.

"Our patience is over," said Vittorio Emanuele Marzotto in a Polish sports magazine. In addition, it was made clear to the GP pilots that if they continued to work with Graversen they would never get original parts from GM again.

SPEEDWEEK.com has asked Flemming Graversen to comment on these allegations. However, he has not yet replied.

 

From the article, they don’t seem to be threatening legal action, and only issuing empty threats. So presumably the GM design is no longer patented (or never was) or the FGM one is sufficiently different.

[hrhbig 69]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:23 PM, ONTWOMINUTES said:

Google , fgm engine images and you'll see. 

tried that , am not interested in female genital mutilation !!!!!

[uk_martin 1,606]

On 3/15/2021 at 10:30 AM, Grand Central said:

If GM had a winnable case that they would not be sending out pointless letters or issuing unenforceable threats.

Pretty pathetic.

Exactly this. If there is a patent infringement, let the patent lawyers sort it out. If there is no patent on the GM designs and products, then more fool GM. OK so patents cost money, but if you don't have one you can be copied. Look at the computer mouse...nobody bothered patenting these, and now anyone can produce them. The price you pay for not paying the price.

[Humphrey Appleby 13,951]

24 minutes ago, uk_martin said:

Exactly this. If there is a patent infringement, let the patent lawyers sort it out. If there is no patent on the GM designs and products, then more fool GM. OK so patents cost money, but if you don't have one you can be copied. Look at the computer mouse...nobody bothered patenting these, and now anyone can produce them. The price you pay for not paying the price.

Patents only last 20 years though, and I'd guess the GM design is now a fair bit older than that. Any subsequent improvements may be patentable, but I'm not sure that you could basically stop someone building a GM after all this time. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Humphrey Appleby

[fatface 2,552]

On 3/15/2021 at 11:32 AM, Humphrey Appleby said:

From the article, they don’t seem to be threatening legal action, and only issuing empty threats. So presumably the GM design is no longer patented (or never was) or the FGM one is sufficiently different.

Exactly. Have they patented the design? If so, it's an an open and shut case. If not, why the hell not? 

[Daniel Smith 5,658]

Just had a look at patent law, haven't gone into great detail but, it does say you cannot patent a product that isn't significantly different from anything else. 

So that would suggest that Speedway engines cannot be due to the simplicity & similarity of it's mechanical workings. 

GM, JAWA, Godden, JGM, Gerharx etc all legally have a free reign on each others equipment to make modifications and/or copies.

 

 

[racers and royals 8,720]

Google translation of latest Speedweek article

Can a tuner simply copy parts of an engine or an entire unit? GM sees itself duped by Femming Graversen and is preparing a lawsuit against the Dane.
The Italian engine manufacturer GM is a top address in rail sports alongside Jawa and GTR. But almost no one of the drivers from the Speedway GP right down to the B license or the sidecar class builds the engine into the chassis of their bike the way it comes off the rack. Most of them trust the skills of tuners who conjure up one or the other horsepower from the already expensive aggregates. That costs a lot of extra money.

Only the users of the engine from the Swiss Marcel Gerhard make an exception here. The GTR developed by the former long-track world champion should, according to him, be just as good as a fully tuned GM or Jawa, but last much longer and therefore cheaper.

The problem in prototype sport in rail sport is the lack of fixed specifications regarding durability, apart from a maximum speed of 13,500 rpm in the European Championship and the World Cup. There is no trace of the homologation of an engine, i.e. the stipulation of a certain minimum number of pieces per racing series.

"We don't want to tell people which parts they have to install by, for example, homologating a special piston," emphasized Armando Castagna, the highest track sports official of the FIM motorcycle association, most recently to SPEEDWEEK.com. And: "Our philosophy is that we open the market to as many manufacturers as possible."

The dispute between GM boss Vittorio Marzotto and the Danish tuner Flemming Graversen, who looks after a number of top pilots, especially from the financially strong speedway GP scene, shows that engine manufacturers and tuners can get into each other properly .

Graversen is said to have copied their engine exactly, according to GM, with which Marzotto does not agree and wants to file a suit against the Dane in court. In addition, the Italian warned the speedway pilots against using the services of Flemmig Graversen. You would never get original parts from GM again in the future, and bonuses for World Cup victories and other perks would also be canceled.

Lukasz Malaka, journalist for the Polish website “po-bandzie.com.pl”, asked Vittorio Marzotto how far the case against Graversen had progressed. After that, Marzotto would have followed up with a top GP driver who, according to him, worked exclusively with Graversen, but has not yet received any feedback. Marzotto expects the intended driver to be intelligent enough to make the right decision, because his door could close forever.

Marzotto also made it clear that there was no problem with someone buying their new or used GM and then hiring them at Graversen. However, if someone were to buy a copy of their GM, they would end up working with them permanently. Graversen would employ morally reprehensible practices. Therefore, GM's lawyers are currently preparing a lawsuit against Graversen.

 

[Fromafar 10,358]

33 minutes ago, racers and royals said:

Google translation of latest Speedweek article

Can a tuner simply copy parts of an engine or an entire unit? GM sees itself duped by Femming Graversen and is preparing a lawsuit against the Dane.
The Italian engine manufacturer GM is a top address in rail sports alongside Jawa and GTR. But almost no one of the drivers from the Speedway GP right down to the B license or the sidecar class builds the engine into the chassis of their bike the way it comes off the rack. Most of them trust the skills of tuners who conjure up one or the other horsepower from the already expensive aggregates. That costs a lot of extra money.

Only the users of the engine from the Swiss Marcel Gerhard make an exception here. The GTR developed by the former long-track world champion should, according to him, be just as good as a fully tuned GM or Jawa, but last much longer and therefore cheaper.

The problem in prototype sport in rail sport is the lack of fixed specifications regarding durability, apart from a maximum speed of 13,500 rpm in the European Championship and the World Cup. There is no trace of the homologation of an engine, i.e. the stipulation of a certain minimum number of pieces per racing series.

"We don't want to tell people which parts they have to install by, for example, homologating a special piston," emphasized Armando Castagna, the highest track sports official of the FIM motorcycle association, most recently to SPEEDWEEK.com. And: "Our philosophy is that we open the market to as many manufacturers as possible."

The dispute between GM boss Vittorio Marzotto and the Danish tuner Flemming Graversen, who looks after a number of top pilots, especially from the financially strong speedway GP scene, shows that engine manufacturers and tuners can get into each other properly .

Graversen is said to have copied their engine exactly, according to GM, with which Marzotto does not agree and wants to file a suit against the Dane in court. In addition, the Italian warned the speedway pilots against using the services of Flemmig Graversen. You would never get original parts from GM again in the future, and bonuses for World Cup victories and other perks would also be canceled.

Lukasz Malaka, journalist for the Polish website “po-bandzie.com.pl”, asked Vittorio Marzotto how far the case against Graversen had progressed. After that, Marzotto would have followed up with a top GP driver who, according to him, worked exclusively with Graversen, but has not yet received any feedback. Marzotto expects the intended driver to be intelligent enough to make the right decision, because his door could close forever.

Marzotto also made it clear that there was no problem with someone buying their new or used GM and then hiring them at Graversen. However, if someone were to buy a copy of their GM, they would end up working with them permanently. Graversen would employ morally reprehensible practices. Therefore, GM's lawyers are currently preparing a lawsuit against Graversen.

 

Marzotto wasting time and money .IMO

[Rich 75]

Is there any such thing as a standard, off the shelf, GM engine ?

[Fromafar 10,358]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

Is there any such thing as a standard, off the shelf, GM engine ?

Don’t think there is these days.If I remember correctly they weren’t very reliable when they 1 st come on the market.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Fromafar

[uk_martin 1,606]

On 3/20/2021 at 10:15 AM, Daniel Smith said:

...it does say you cannot patent a product that isn't significantly different from anything else....

Yes and no.

When you see all the patents taken out by Apple, Samsung, Motorola etc it makes you realise that even the slightest changes CAN be patentable if they result new or significantly improved performance, or something different to what's gone on before. One mobile phone isn't significantly different from any other mobile phone, BUT one tiny aspect of the latest mobile phone can be significantly different from the others, just like one aspect of the 2021 GM motor could be significantly different to the 2020 (or the 2015 or the 2010 GM motor) and that's what could be re-patented. Finding, explaining the and acquiring the patents on those differences is where patent lawyers make their money. Unless of course GM don't want to pay...

[Rich 75]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:33 PM, Fromafar said:

Don’t think there is these days.If I remember correctly they weren’t very reliable when they 1 st come on the market.

As far as I'm aware, GM engines have always come in kit form, then assembled to the riders / tuners own specification, not always using GM standard parts.

[Fromafar 10,358]

4 minutes ago, Rich said:

As far as I'm aware, GM engines have always come in kit form, then assembled to the riders / tuners own specification, not always using GM standard parts.

Would think there were riders who bought a GM engine ready to race.Could be wrong though.