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GP rounds 3 and 4 Wroclaw Fri/Sat 30th/31st July live on BT Sport

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1 hour ago, iainb said:

 

Maybe a different comparison would have been... would Jerzy Szczakiel have won in 1973 if the final hadn't been held at Chorzow, or Egon Muller in 1983 if the final wasn't at Norden?

 

Muller and Szczakiel are not valid examples though, as had the final been held in another country then in both cases they would not have been riding there regularly.

With the GP all the riders ride in Poland and, in most cases, are probably based there too, just as people like Mauger, Olsen and Penhall were based in the UK when they won here in order to ride in the league here.

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3 minutes ago, falcace said:

You're on safer ground with Muller and Szczakiel of course. I don't think anyone would question that they would never have won in another country or in a GP format. Both victories owed something to elements beyond their own ability, be it track preparation, mechanical, questionable officiating or team mate assistance....and the opposition being in unfamiliar territory. Can't really say that of the GPs.

When you list PC's route, it sounds straightforward. But it needs context. This was a time when the UK was the epicentre of world speedway. PC was no more at home than Mauger, Olsen, Crump and all the rest where...it was all of their bases and where they rode more than anywhere else...just as Poland is today.

I'd also add that in PC's route, three world finallists and WTC/World Pairs winners (Betts, Wilson, Jessup) were eliminated in the British Final and the two immediately previous World Champions (Olsen and Michanek) were eliminated at the Intercontinental Final. "Easy" is not a word many would use. It's rather more the opposite...you'd be hard pressed to find a more cut-throat World Championship qualifier ever than the 1976 Intercontinental Final with 8 eliminated in a deep field. 

Yes, we'd all like to see the GPs spread around a bit, but given COVID, we have a very credible series on tracks not unfamiliar to the whole field. 

I'd say that England was more of a "home" to the likes of Mauger, Olsen & Crump etc than Poland is to Woffinden, Lindgren & Madsen due to the language barrier and different cultures. The riders are only based there the last 2 years due to Covid and now the imposed league restrictions by Poland.

Let's look at the contenders:

Janowski: 6 home rounds, 2 home tracks

Laguta: 1 home round, Laguta has only gone to Wroclaw this year so not really a home track like it is to Magic & Woffy

Zmarzlik: 6 home rounds, 0 home tracks

Sayfutdinov: 1 home round, 0 home tracks

Lindgren: 1 home round, 0 home tracks

Woffinden: 0 home rounds, 2 home tracks

Madsen: 1 home round, 0 home tracks

How is that fair? I'd rather have seen the double headers at the non-polish venues and the one nighters in Poland.

Would Zmarzlik be pulling some of the moves he does if he wasn't pumped up by a hugely partisan crowd?

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1 minute ago, chunky said:

They whole system these days - including the GP's themselves - is a lot more equitable for everyone.

It was before the Polish double headers 

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12 minutes ago, iainb said:

It was before the Polish double headers 

No, it still is. Every rider still has EXACTLY the same opportunity on a familiar track...

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16 minutes ago, iainb said:

How is that fair? I'd rather have seen the double headers at the non-polish venues and the one nighters in Poland.

They aren't going to put the double-headers at certain tracks just because you want them to. I'm sure several of the tracks just can't host a double-header, or at best, just may not be suitable.

And yes, Zmarzlik would make those moves anywhere, at any time.

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16 minutes ago, iainb said:

I'd say that England was more of a "home" to the likes of Mauger, Olsen & Crump etc than Poland is to Woffinden, Lindgren & Madsen due to the language barrier and different cultures. The riders are only based there the last 2 years due to Covid and now the imposed league restrictions by Poland.

Is it really that different?

I was in Bydgoszcz a month ago working at an athletics event. People speak English, drink beer, eat meat and two veg, same music, same fashion in a relatively affluent Western society. It's a lot different from when I was there in 1992 and I'm sure older fans will concur a lot different from the 70s and 80s. Non-Poles have spent years riding (and in some cases) living there with Polish clubs, not to mention sponsors, mechanics and plenty of people they all know. 

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19 minutes ago, falcace said:

People speak English, eat meat and two veg, 

So, totally unlike England then... :rofl:

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1 hour ago, chunky said:

They aren't going to put the double-headers at certain tracks just because you want them to. I'm sure several of the tracks just can't host a double-header, or at best, just may not be suitable.

And yes, Zmarzlik would make those moves anywhere, at any time.

Of course they're not going to put double headers on because I want them to... a bit daft to even suggest that!

You're sure some tracks can't host double headers, which ones are you sure about?

You don't think a partisan crowd makes a difference? I think the results in last year's behind closed doors football fixtures shows that the crowd can make quite a big difference to performance. 

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37 minutes ago, chunky said:

So, totally unlike England then... :rofl:

Ah, coming across as a bit of a xenophobe now, how funny of you:nono:

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1 hour ago, falcace said:

Is it really that different?

I was in Bydgoszcz a month ago working at an athletics event. People speak English, drink beer, eat meat and two veg, same music, same fashion in a relatively affluent Western society. It's a lot different from when I was there in 1992 and I'm sure older fans will concur a lot different from the 70s and 80s. Non-Poles have spent years riding (and in some cases) living there with Polish clubs, not to mention sponsors, mechanics and plenty of people they all know. 

Very few spoke English when I used to go to Zakopane a few years back... have you ever tried to mime sickness and  diarreah to a Polish chemist :unsure:

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32 minutes ago, iainb said:

Ah, coming across as a bit of a xenophobe now, how funny of you:nono:

Exactly. That's why I married a foreigner, and live in a foreign country,... :t:

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5 minutes ago, chunky said:

Exactly. That's why I married a foreigner, and live in a foreign country,... :t:

Apologies, I've obviously misunderstood your "joke"

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37 minutes ago, iainb said:

You're sure some tracks can't host double headers, which ones are you sure about?

As I said, I am sure not every track could, but which ones, I don't know.

37 minutes ago, iainb said:

You don't think a partisan crowd makes a difference? I think the results in last year's behind closed doors football fixtures shows that the crowd can make quite a big difference to performance. 

1) Where did I say that a partisan crowd doesn't make a difference? You mentioned some manoeuvres by ONE rider, and again, I think he would ride like that with or without a crowd.

2) We are talking about speedway, not football.

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27 minutes ago, chunky said:

As I said, I am sure not every track could, but which ones, I don't know.

1) Where did I say that a partisan crowd doesn't make a difference? You mentioned some manoeuvres by ONE rider, and again, I think he would ride like that with or without a crowd.

2) We are talking about speedway, not football.

But you are sure of it? lol

1) you didn't, I said that it does or can make a difference. I did pick one rider out, I could have picked others over the years. Gollob always raised his game in Polish GP's. Bomber won his home GP with a hugely partisan crowd. 

2) I'm talking about human performance in sport. You can stick to speedway if you like if you think it helps your argument... which, of course, it doesn't. 

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32 minutes ago, iainb said:

But you are sure of it? lol

1) you didn't, I said that it does or can make a difference. I did pick one rider out, I could have picked others over the years. Gollob always raised his game in Polish GP's. Bomber won his home GP with a hugely partisan crowd. 

2) I'm talking about human performance in sport. You can stick to speedway if you like if you think it helps your argument... which, of course, it doesn't. 

I know that lack of a crowd can affect sports like football and darts, where you are surrounded by the crowd and the noise. The adrenaline rush when it comes to motorsports - I believe - will largely negate that.

Besides, the crowd doesn't have to be supporting you to make a difference; true competitors will raise their game in front of a hostile crowd too. You can benefit from any kind of atmosphere.

Edited by chunky

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