Ray Stadia 1,064 Posted July 19, 2021 34 minutes ago, Falcon1983 said: These are only the figures they accounted for, if the world goes cashless then Speedway will be over If these were true losses they wouldn't do it Most probably saying they got 300 in the gate when it's more like 900, speedway is small enough to get away with being investigated Definitely another thought/angle? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fromafar 10,332 Posted July 19, 2021 14 minutes ago, mikebv said: Which also means it becomes a 'plaything' that doesn't have to be sustainable in its own right.. Which can never be a good thing for collective organic growth... "Don't include Glasgow" was a comment re salaries further up the thread... Well you have to... The inference was I presume that they pay more, therefore, by doing so, they bring "heat" to the pay scales which then filters down to the rest, as riders expectations grow as the "going rate" increases.. Collectively the tracks spend literally hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds which is subsidised to a certain amount by hundreds and hundreds of thousands of income.. All to have a sport hardly anyone in the country knows about... Explain that one... Glasgow +£20k.Wages £10/ point + brown envelope. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pieman72 588 Posted July 19, 2021 I wouldn't take too much notice of balance sheets unless they are a plc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,619 Posted July 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Pieman72 said: I wouldn't take too much notice of balance sheets unless they are a plc. And even then I'd be a bit cautious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waytogo28 2,054 Posted July 20, 2021 On 7/18/2021 at 3:37 PM, mikebv said: For me, five man teams and a league of 12 teams riding home and away twice is the only way to deliver the priority requirements for the sport... Has to be the way forward - IF forward is the way the promoters are looking? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,393 Posted July 20, 2021 I've had a fiddle about with formats and 5 is a bit repetitive but 6 works ok, 3 rides for 6, 4 for the others plus a nominated race making it 5. 12 teams x 6 riders = 72 blokes needed graded ABCD like Denmark, no fannying around with fractions of a point Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ch958 said: I've had a fiddle about with formats and 5 is a bit repetitive but 6 works ok, 3 rides for 6, 4 for the others plus a nominated race making it 5. 12 teams x 6 riders = 72 blokes needed graded ABCD like Denmark, no fannying around with fractions of a point Agree on this point...speedway has been notorious in the past concentrating on "fractions of a point" when deciding team make-ups. A rider being denied a team spot because his average is .02 or whatever above the recognised cut off point is nonsense in my view. Perhaps a 5% (?) flexibilty option either side of any chosen rider's average when declaring a team? No doubt the statisticians out there will tell me different offering issues that I'm obviously not able to see? I recall a grading system was in place many years ago? Edited July 20, 2021 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest compost Posted July 20, 2021 33 minutes ago, ch958 said: I've had a fiddle about with formats and 5 is a bit repetitive but 6 works ok, 3 rides for 6, 4 for the others plus a nominated race making it 5. 12 teams x 6 riders = 72 blokes needed graded ABCD like Denmark, no fannying around with fractions of a point The problem then becomes that teams will want a non-riding reserve (doesn't matter if you say the No.6 is the reserve) so you'll end up needing 7 (or even 8) riders per team. They tried this back at the start of League racing - 6 man teams which needed 7 or 8. I still think that tinkering with rules, team and/or race formats and averages is just tinkering and that the 'sport' needs a more radical shake up to attract new, old and former punters. Though I freely admit that I don't have the answer to it other than to say that the bikes need to be slower, cheaper, easier to ride and completly standard to attract more people to take up the sport and to participate in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,393 Posted July 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, compost said: The problem then becomes that teams will want a non-riding reserve (doesn't matter if you say the No.6 is the reserve) so you'll end up needing 7 (or even 8) riders per team. They tried this back at the start of League racing - 6 man teams which needed 7 or 8. I still think that tinkering with rules, team and/or race formats and averages is just tinkering and that the 'sport' needs a more radical shake up to attract new, old and former punters. Though I freely admit that I don't have the answer to it other than to say that the bikes need to be slower, cheaper, easier to ride and completly standard to attract more people to take up the sport and to participate in it. completely agree with everything you say, I'm just trying to figure out how we can get a decent sized division of at least 12 teams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,314 Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, steve roberts said: Agree on this point...speedway has been notorious in the past concentrating on "fractions of a point" when deciding team make-ups. A rider being denied a team spot because his average is .02 or whatever above the recognised cut off point is nonsense in my view. Perhaps a 5% (?) flexibilty option either side of any chosen rider's average when declaring a team? No doubt the statisticians out there will tell me different offering issues that I'm obviously not able to see? I recall a grading system was in place many years ago? You could, for team building, leave out fractions. It does, perhaps, leave some riders exposed. You could, for example, have all riders from 6.50 to 7.49 rated as a 7.00 riders, but is that fair on riders who average 6.50? Perhaps base in on 0.50 of a point. So 6.75 to 7.24 become 7.00. Riders from 6.25 to 6.74 become 6.50. This would be for team building only. They would still retain a proper average for team positions. In case you haven't guessed, I actually quite enjoy the fractions of a point! But it can cause problems in team building where riders miss out by the smallest of margins. Then again, it's open to manipulation, but what isn't? So, for example, Belle Vue: Kurtz 7.5 Bewley 7.0, Wright 6.0, S. Worrall 5.5, R. Worrall 5.0, Etheridge 5.0 Kings Lynn: Jorgensen 6.5, Riss 6.0, Lawson 6.0, Heeps 6.0, Kerr, 6.0, Wells 4.0 Edited July 20, 2021 by Grachan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gambo 1,337 Posted July 20, 2021 Gradings never work (as has been proven before) because of the value range of a grade. Teams will always go for the highest rider in a grade, as was seen before, and you could have a disparity between the top and bottom teams of around 4 - 5 points. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pieman72 588 Posted July 20, 2021 2 hours ago, arnieg said: And even then I'd be a bit cautious. Speedway promoters are a slippery lot and many of Speedway's problems could be aligned with their attitude to riders, supporters and the sport in general. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old bob at herne bay 828 Posted July 20, 2021 Wouldn't take any notice of the companies house declarations. I am sure that all clubs have a good accountant to present the figures that suit their circumstances. In a largely cash based system who really knows what comes in and what goes out ? Most clubs are run by volunteers with a few cash paid staff. As has been said earlier, if a promoter was actually paying out £100k from his own pocket to keep a speedway club afloat he wouldn't do it twice. They must be making a living out of being a speedway promoter. Not a fortune maybe , but they certainly are not shellling out £100k a year from thier own pockets to promote a speedway club. Individual meetings bit the dust years ago when the cheap skates decided on a 12 heat format. If someone put up a new bike as a prize (a la Internationale) and run a 20 heat format with some star riders taking part the crowds would come to watch. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,235 Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gambo said: Gradings never work (as has been proven before) because of the value range of a grade. Teams will always go for the highest rider in a grade, as was seen before, and you could have a disparity between the top and bottom teams of around 4 - 5 points. You could still have a mean average per team meaning no team could pay out silly money to entice the best in every grade... And averages alone simply don't work... If they did then the top team wouldn't end up 40 to 50 points ahead of the bottom team which happens virtually every season. .. I still think the 12 teams, five men per team, made up of the current Preniership standard heat leaders, second strings/best reserves, is something that would tick so many boxes that the sport needs to fill.. 44 matches and six rides a night gives the riders plenty of money making opportunities and the fans some variety of teams as well as 10 riders on show of fairly similar standard. (No make weights to reach an average), so the racing should be competitive... It will also give the league some credibilty as those (no disrespect), journeymen riders (who make up the vast majority of riders) without jobs, can replace off form or injured riders.. A £5k a night salary cap means a 45 point average score would give each rider £811 a night at an average of £111 per point. Obviously the reality will be No1 gets circa £130 and No5 around £90... That £5k (which is £10k for both meetings), would mean 667 punters at £18 to cover the VAT as well.. 850 punters would deliver £15.3k and 1000 obviously £18k... Those who pay rent may need nearer the 1000 than those who don't to cover all costs, but they will still have their usual sponsorship to assist with this too Surely with a credible offering, racing on nights when you can get your best crowds, with 15 hears of riders of pretty similar capabilty, (and credibility), that at least 12 tracks could deliver 850 each as a mimumum? The Second tier could then be what it really ought to be and that is riders covering expenses and gaining experience, with those with capability, looking to progress to the top league... A No1 heat leader earning £130 a point, scoring 12 a night from his six rides, 44 times a season,would earn just over £68k. Not a fortune, but he will only be working seven months a year.... Edited July 20, 2021 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pieman72 588 Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) Everybody's talking anoraky when we have only 6 teams the situation is dire. Edited July 20, 2021 by Pieman72 Grammar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
