pvm 113 Posted July 20, 2021 2 hours ago, mikebv said: You could still have a mean average per team meaning no team could pay out silly money to entice the best in every grade... And averages alone simply don't work... If they did then the top team wouldn't end up 40 to 50 points ahead of the bottom team which happens virtually every season. .. I still think the 12 teams, five men per team, made up of the current Preniership standard heat leaders, second strings/best reserves, is something that would tick so many boxes that the sport needs to fill.. 44 matches and six rides a night gives the riders plenty of money making opportunities and the fans some variety of teams as well as 10 riders on show of fairly similar standard. (No make weights to reach an average), so the racing should be competitive... It will also give the league some credibilty as those (no disrespect), journeymen riders (who make up the vast majority of riders) without jobs, can replace off form or injured riders.. A £5k a night salary cap means a 45 point average score would give each rider £811 a night at an average of £111 per point. Obviously the reality will be No1 gets circa £130 and No5 around £90... That £5k (which is £10k for both meetings), would mean 667 punters at £18 to cover the VAT as well.. 850 punters would deliver £15.3k and 1000 obviously £18k... Those who pay rent may need nearer the 1000 than those who don't to cover all costs, but they will still have their usual sponsorship to assist with this too Surely with a credible offering, racing on nights when you can get your best crowds, with 15 hears of riders of pretty similar capabilty, (and credibility), that at least 12 tracks could deliver 850 each as a mimumum? The Second tier could then be what it really ought to be and that is riders covering expenses and gaining experience, with those with capability, looking to progress to the top league... A No1 heat leader earning £130 a point, scoring 12 a night from his six rides, 44 times a season,would earn just over £68k. Not a fortune, but he will only be working seven months a year.... It sounds good till you start talking about "Which 12 Teams". As it stands there are 6 Premiership Teams & 12 Championship Teams. I assume the 12 teams in this new format will be the 6 present Premiership teams + 6 from the present Championship teams, So which 6 teams from the present Championship would you sacrifice to make the Premiership more successful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted July 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, pvm said: It sounds good till you start talking about "Which 12 Teams". As it stands there are 6 Premiership Teams & 12 Championship Teams. I assume the 12 teams in this new format will be the 6 present Premiership teams + 6 from the present Championship teams, So which 6 teams from the present Championship would you sacrifice to make the Premiership more successful. You would have to make some big decisions for the good of the sport.. Crowd levels should dictate structure in Speedway.. Not the whim of the promoters.. The sport (any sport), needs a stand out level to aspire to... For me, Glasgow and Poole look natural "top league" teams, with Swindon also if they ever come back (no smirking at the back there)... Maybe a phased approach will be needed , next season 8 teams then 10 etc? That would mean plenty of "decent" riders to cover absences.. The five year plan (another one), should end with one major "Elite" league and one around NDL+ to provide organic development growth to get into the top level.. Edited July 20, 2021 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted July 20, 2021 6 hours ago, Grachan said: You could, for team building, leave out fractions. It does, perhaps, leave some riders exposed. You could, for example, have all riders from 6.50 to 7.49 rated as a 7.00 riders, but is that fair on riders who average 6.50? Perhaps base in on 0.50 of a point. So 6.75 to 7.24 become 7.00. Riders from 6.25 to 6.74 become 6.50. This would be for team building only. They would still retain a proper average for team positions. In case you haven't guessed, I actually quite enjoy the fractions of a point! But it can cause problems in team building where riders miss out by the smallest of margins. Then again, it's open to manipulation, but what isn't? So, for example, Belle Vue: Kurtz 7.5 Bewley 7.0, Wright 6.0, S. Worrall 5.5, R. Worrall 5.0, Etheridge 5.0 Kings Lynn: Jorgensen 6.5, Riss 6.0, Lawson 6.0, Heeps 6.0, Kerr, 6.0, Wells 4.0 Good post! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,962 Posted July 20, 2021 5 hours ago, old bob at herne bay said: Wouldn't take any notice of the companies house declarations. I am sure that all clubs have a good accountant to present the figures that suit their circumstances. In a largely cash based system who really knows what comes in and what goes out ? Most clubs are run by volunteers with a few cash paid staff. As has been said earlier, if a promoter was actually paying out £100k from his own pocket to keep a speedway club afloat he wouldn't do it twice. They must be making a living out of being a speedway promoter. Not a fortune maybe , but they certainly are not shellling out £100k a year from thier own pockets to promote a speedway club. Individual meetings bit the dust years ago when the cheap skates decided on a 12 heat format. If someone put up a new bike as a prize (a la Internationale) and run a 20 heat format with some star riders taking part the crowds would come to watch. You only need a dog with an, ahem, indigestion problem and all of a sudden you can be in profit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falcon1983 557 Posted July 20, 2021 It's easy, as only maybe 2 or 3 riders dont double down from the prem, make it to Championship standard so the 6 prem sides come down with Glasgow, Kent, Leicester & Poole rebrand it as the British League, 10 sides. Leaving the other 8 clubs, Mildenhall and any second sides such as the Colts to run in the National League circa 12-14 sides No rider currently a heat leader in the Championship can double down from British League to National League, use the rising star system extend it to no.6 and no.7 but have a squad system of 3 riders per club in the top league. National League for Commonwealth riders only Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Byker Biker 468 Posted July 20, 2021 4 hours ago, iainb said: You only need a dog with an, ahem, indigestion problem and all of a sudden you can be in profit And a hearing problem ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falcon1983 557 Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) if for 2022 restriction ease for travel, how many of these riders do you think could be enticed either back or into British Speedway? Marcus Birkemose Denmark Martin Vaculik Slovakia Anders Thomson Denmark Jonas Jeppesen Denmark Kenneth Bjerre Denmark Patrick Hansen Denmark Frederik Jakobsen Denmark Nicki Pedersen Denmark Jason Doyle Australia Jaimon Lidsey Australia Rohan Tungate Australia Chris Holder Australia Petr Chlupac Czech Francis Gusts Latvia Andzej Lebedevs Latvia Max Fricke Australia Matej Zagar Slovakia Jan Kvech Czech Nico Covatti Italy Tomas H Jonasson Sweden Jacob Thorsell Sweden Matthew Gilmore Australia Keynan Rew Australia Kai Huckenbeck Germany Michael Haertel Germany Fraser Bowes Australia Pontus Aspgren Sweden Michael Jepsen Jensen Denmark Timo Lahti Finland Peter Ljung Sweden Peter Kildemand Denmark Philip Hellstroem Baengs Sweden Ben Ernst Germany Rasmus Jensen Denmark Lukas Gienhage Germany Kevin Juhl Pedersen Denmark Niels Kristian Iversen Denmark Kim Nilsson Sweden Alexander Woentin Sweden Oliver Berntzon Sweden David Bellego France Andreas Lyager Denmark Brayden McGuiness Australia Mathias Thoernblom Sweden Jason Joergensen Denmark Mathias Nielsen Denmark Ludvig Lindgren Sweden Joel Andersson Sweden Dimitri Berge France Adrian Miedzinski Poland Linus Sundstroem Sweden Victor Palovaara Sweden Josh Grajczonek Australia Krystian Pieszczek Poland Rene Bach Denmark Grzegorz Zengota Poland Claus Vissing Denmark Jonas B Andersen Denmark Edited July 21, 2021 by Falcon1983 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sommelier 1,118 Posted July 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, Falcon1983 said: if for 2022 restriction ease for travel, how many of these riders do you think could be enticed either back or into British Speedway? Marcus Birkemose Denmark Martin Vaculik Slovakia Anders Thomson Denmark Jonas Jeppesen Denmark Kenneth Bjerre Denmark Patrick Hansen Denmark Frederik Jakobsen Denmark Nicki Pedersen Denmark Jason Doyle Australia Jaimon Lidsey Australia Rohan Tungate Australia Chris Holder Australia Petr Chlupac Czech Francis Gusts Latvia Andzej Lebedevs Latvia Max Fricke Australia Matej Zagar Slovakia Jan Kvech Czech Nico Covatti Italy Tomas H Jonasson Sweden Jacob Thorsell Sweden Matthew Gilmore Australia Keynan Rew Australia Kai Huckenbeck Germany Michael Haertel Germany Fraser Bowes Australia Pontus Aspgren Sweden Michael Jepsen Jensen Denmark Timo Lahti Finland Peter Ljung Sweden Peter Kildemand Denmark Philip Hellstroem Baengs Sweden Ben Ernst Germany Rasmus Jensen Denmark Lukas Gienhage Germany Kevin Juhl Pedersen Denmark Niels Kristian Iversen Denmark Kim Nilsson Sweden Alexander Woentin Sweden Oliver Berntzon Sweden David Bellego France Andreas Lyager Denmark Brayden McGuiness Australia Mathias Thoernblom Sweden Jason Joergensen Denmark Mathias Nielsen Denmark Ludvig Lindgren Sweden Joel Andersson Sweden Dimitri Berge France Adrian Miedzinski Poland Linus Sundstroem Sweden Victor Palovaara Sweden Josh Grajczonek Australia Krystian Pieszczek Poland Rene Bach Denmark Grzegorz Zengota Poland Claus Vissing Sweden Jonas B Andersen Denmark What UK club could afford the above riders in your list 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topsoil 2,498 Posted July 21, 2021 Claus Vissing will be chuffed to be called Swedish Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falcon1983 557 Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) 53 minutes ago, sommelier said: What UK club could afford the above riders in your list well lets have a look shall we.... Martin Vaculik Slovakia Frederik Jakobsen Denmark Nicki Pedersen Denmark Jason Doyle Australia Jaimon Lidsey Australia Rohan Tungate Australia Chris Holder Australia Max Fricke Australia Nico Covatti Italy Tomas H Jonasson Sweden Jacob Thorsell Sweden Kai Huckenbeck Germany Michael Haertel Germany Pontus Aspgren Sweden Timo Lahti Finland Peter Kildemand Denmark Rasmus Jensen Denmark Niels Kristian Iversen Denmark David Bellego France Ludvig Lindgren Sweden Joel Andersson Sweden Dimitri Berge France Adrian Miedzinski Poland Linus Sundstroem Sweden Victor Palovaara Sweden Josh Grajczonek Australia Krystian Pieszczek Poland Rene Bach Denmark Claus Vissing Denmark Jonas B Andersen Denmark I am sure someone will tell me if i am wrong but haven't most of these riders ridden in the UK over the past 2-3 completed seasons or have been linked to racing here again? I am simply asking that people are saying there are a lack of riders but would some of these have ridden in the UK if travel restrictions allowed, plus add Klindt to that list Pedersen agreed to ride, Vaculik has ridden in the UK although briefly, Kildemand, Doyle, Rasmus Jensen, Covatti etc. Edited July 21, 2021 by Falcon1983 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falcon1983 557 Posted July 21, 2021 19 minutes ago, topsoil said: Claus Vissing will be chuffed to be called Swedish doubt he even reads the forum to be honest but do screenshot it and let him know! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,942 Posted July 21, 2021 On 7/19/2021 at 3:43 PM, Wee Eck said: Figures are available from Companies’ House website. The following are approximate losses made in the 2019 season: Leicester £30k Poole £16k Berwick £9k Belle Vue £84k Edinburgh £18k Redcar £35k Scunthorpe £3k Swindon £78k and the only profit I could find: Wolverhampton £7,000 Most, if not all speedway promotions have too small a revenue to have to file detailed accounts at Companies House, so all you're effectively seeing is a balance sheet at a given moment in time which often doesn't align with the speedway season either. It really doesn't tell you much about their profitability or otherwise. Before the threshold was increased some years ago, some speedway promotions did have to file more detailed accounts and it was quite interesting what was claimed as expenses sometimes. There was undoubtedly cash-in-hand stuff going on as well, so apparent losses may not always be what are claimed, and are possibly written off against taxes elsewhere. But it doesn't take a genius to work out from the attendances and limited other sources of revenues that speedway brings in, that it isn't a money spinner. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,942 Posted July 21, 2021 On 7/18/2021 at 5:30 PM, ch958 said: you say they 'think' the fans want team racing. If individual events were well attended surely they wd run them. Personally I enjoy them but prefer team racing. The odd individual event was fine as a novelty meeting, but I think teams are a better business proposition. Individual riders come-and-go, whereas there's more continuity with teams. Fans tend to follow the same team year-after-year regardless of who's riding, whereas you tend to lose interest in individual competitions when you no longer have a favourite rider in them. I do think one missed opportunity though, was not linking all the open individual meetings of yesteryear into some sort of season-long national competition, possibly leading towards a Riders' Championship or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,393 Posted July 21, 2021 Just now, Humphrey Appleby said: The odd individual event was fine as a novelty meeting, but I think teams are a better business proposition. Individual riders come-and-go, whereas there's more continuity with teams. Fans tend to follow the same team year-after-year regardless of who's riding, whereas you tend to lose interest in individual competitions when you no longer have a favourite rider in them. I do think one missed opportunity though, was not linking all the open individual meetings of yesteryear into some sort of season-long national competition, possibly leading towards a Riders' Championship or something. I did suggest at one point that if 2nd halves were to return points could be earned from them towards a season end thing. Would make them a bit more meaningful What you suggest is like a British Open Championship qualifying round, would work I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,942 Posted July 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, ch958 said: I did suggest at one point that if 2nd halves were to return points could be earned from them towards a season end thing. Would make them a bit more meaningful I'd have been more bold and used 'second half' competitions as qualifying for the World Championship and subsequently the SGP. That would have got riders to have taken them seriously... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
