iainb 4,962 Posted July 18, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, ch958 said: and yet over time these are the best attended meetings, individual meetings seem to be less popular now unless they're GP related 2 hours ago, mikebv said: The individual meetings invariably dont have much of a prize fund and riders race for "basic money".. Even the British Final itself being ran on a Monday night doesn't generate anywhere near the crowd levels it used to at Brandon on a Sunday.. These Individual meetings are invariably run at the end of the season as a fixture filler or at the start of the season when there's a frozen drop on the end of your nose. That's why they don't pull a crowd and because of this promoters think the fans want team racing first and foremost. Back in the day the "big" individual was held during the summer, The Golden Gauntlets, Pride of the East, Star of Anglia, The 16 Lapper, Barum Trophy, Coalite Classic, MLRC, NRC, Brandonapolis and the list goes on... British Final, Commonwealth Final, Overseas Final. The fact that the British Final is not run on a Saturday night at the NSS is a complete waste of the event and a scandal. One of the best attended meetings in relatively modern times (although it was 25 years ago now!) was the Rick Miller testimonial, pulled in a massive crowd for what was, with all due respect to him and he is a Coventry legend, a (very good) 2nd string rider. But boy did he promote it! Edited July 18, 2021 by iainb 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,393 Posted July 18, 2021 you say they 'think' the fans want team racing. If individual events were well attended surely they wd run them. Personally I enjoy them but prefer team racing. Teesside Silver Helmet was always a highlight for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SlicktrackSandy 71 Posted July 18, 2021 22 minutes ago, ch958 said: you say they 'think' the fans want team racing. If individual events were well attended surely they wd run them. Personally I enjoy them but prefer team racing. Teesside Silver Helmet was always a highlight for me. Yes, that was indeed a good one and there are one or two others over the leagues that come into the same category. When used sparingly they can often be the highlight of the season due to the quality of the field and generally good standard of racing. Edinburgh have one called The Scottish Open Championship, which incredibly dates right back to 1928 and boasts an impressive list of past winners. To name but a few, how about Bluey Wilkinson, Jack Young, Dick Campbell, Tommy Miller, Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs, Greg Hancock, Peter Carr, Frede Schott, Rory Schlein et al. None for the past couple of years for obvious reasons but before that there were a good few "Harrison Scottish Open" events, sponsored by Harrisons Ford Centre - a Scottish Ford dealer. Prior to that there were other headline sponsors happy to be involved such as Keyline and others. All racing for the prestigious Jack Young Trophy - a very valuable piece of silverware ( only on loan for a year ) and prize money of course. Fingers crossed we can get back to these good times soon. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fortythirtyeight 838 Posted July 18, 2021 4 hours ago, mikebv said: The individual meetings invariably dont have much of a prize fund and riders race for "basic money".. Hence so many advertised to ride pick up illnesses just before the meeting and get replaced by someone local who usually isnt up to the same level.. Even the British Final itself being ran on a Monday night doesn't generate anywhere near the crowd levels it used to at Brandon on a Sunday.. For me, five man teams and a league of 12 teams riding home and away twice is the only way to deliver the priority requirements for the sport... ie Enough rides for riders and 'spare' riders to have as replacements without guest riders being used which will mean that so important credibility... With team strengths being around a 'Championship', level of two heat leaders and three second strings/best reserves.. Six rides each per night, 15 heats at an average of £120 a point per rider would mean £5400 paid out per night per team for an average 45 points scored.. A decent standard to watch too with no out of their depth lads.. These lads could then race in a lower league made up of the other teams left and "B" teams from any team in the top league who wants to run one.. A league that could use seven man teams to give the riders most in need of practice to improve the opportunity to do so.. £120 a point !?!? Where on earth are you getting that pay scale from ? Bartosz Smarzlik ? so roughly DOUBLE what a basic 3rd heat leader or overpaid second string gets now . That doesn’t add up when the sport is already bankrupting itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted July 18, 2021 30 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said: £120 a point !?!? Where on earth are you getting that pay scale from ? Bartosz Smarzlik ? so roughly DOUBLE what a basic 3rd heat leader or overpaid second string gets now . That doesn’t add up when the sport is already bankrupting itself. Really? They must be paying out well under £5k a night if that is the case... One top league promoter mentioned circa £10k a night was the going rate, however that was a few years ago when a few of the major stars still rode here.. If they are paying out so little nowadays (must be much less than £10k for two meetings), then how come are they are losing so much? I would think though that if you want riders to ride in one league only, then you would have to pay them a reasonable amount, and if a track cannot afford to pay circa £11k from its home meeting to pay for the two it needs to, then there probably isn't any hope for the sport.. 1200 paying £18 generates over £20k a night which surely must be affordable? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fortythirtyeight 838 Posted July 18, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, mikebv said: Really? They must be paying out well under £5k a night if that is the case... One top league promoter mentioned circa £10k a night was the going rate, however that was a few years ago when a few of the major stars still rode here.. If they are paying out so little nowadays (must be much less than £10k for two meetings), then how come are they are losing so much? I would think though that if you want riders to ride in one league only, then you would have to pay them a reasonable amount, and if a track cannot afford to pay circa £11k from its home meeting to pay for the two it needs to, then there probably isn't any hope for the sport.. 1200 paying £18 generates over £20k a night which surely must be affordable? It basically shows that your just making stuff up and speculating on figures you know nothing about. Whilst Premier division points rates are traditionally higher than championship they are no where near your ‘ guesstimates ‘ and only a select few in the Premiership could dream of getting near your £120 a point. Most championship club don’t get anywhere near 1200 paying customers and most have around 50-60% attendees paying ‘ concession ‘ rates, around £12, as they are pensioners ! Every club has its own pay structure but rule of thumb in the championship would be number 1 on around £80 plus per point ( forget Glasgow !) to number seven £40-£45 per point. There will be travel costs to be added and some will do ‘ bonus ‘ payments ( team win, van and or / mechanic contribution ) so you can’t attach a specific figure and make it fit all as crowd levels and sponsorship deals will also come in to play. A winning team is a lot more expensive than a losing one but then the attendance levels go down when your losing which is why 90% of clubs are losing money and don’t think that winning makes you profit, as Workington sadly found out. Edited July 18, 2021 by Fortythirtyeight 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ringitsneck 348 Posted July 18, 2021 36 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said: It basically shows that your just making stuff up and speculating on figures you know nothing about. Whilst Premier division points rates are traditionally higher than championship they are no where near your ‘ guesstimates ‘ and only a select few in the Premiership could dream of getting near your £120 a point. Most championship club don’t get anywhere near 1200 paying customers and most have around 50-60% attendees paying ‘ concession ‘ rates, around £12, as they are pensioners ! Every club has its own pay structure but rule of thumb in the championship would be number 1 on around £80 plus per point ( forget Glasgow !) to number seven £40-£45 per point. There will be travel costs to be added and some will do ‘ bonus ‘ payments ( team win, van and or / mechanic contribution ) so you can’t attach a specific figure and make it fit all as crowd levels and sponsorship deals will also come in to play. A winning team is a lot more expensive than a losing one but then the attendance levels go down when your losing which is why 90% of clubs are losing money and don’t think that winning makes you profit, as Workington sadly found out. Interesting comments on the pay scales and Workington was a class example of a winning team , with possibly excessive wages, killing the club off when the crowds didn’t match the results. From my travels this season so far your right on the crowd levels, I would think the average around the northern clubs is about 5-600 level currently, some slightly more , some less but I think that’s the average. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martinmauger 584 Posted July 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Fortythirtyeight said: It basically shows that your just making stuff up and speculating on figures you know nothing about. Whilst Premier division points rates are traditionally higher than championship they are no where near your ‘ guesstimates ‘ and only a select few in the Premiership could dream of getting near your £120 a point. Most championship club don’t get anywhere near 1200 paying customers and most have around 50-60% attendees paying ‘ concession ‘ rates, around £12, as they are pensioners ! Every club has its own pay structure but rule of thumb in the championship would be number 1 on around £80 plus per point ( forget Glasgow !) to number seven £40-£45 per point. There will be travel costs to be added and some will do ‘ bonus ‘ payments ( team win, van and or / mechanic contribution ) so you can’t attach a specific figure and make it fit all as crowd levels and sponsorship deals will also come in to play. A winning team is a lot more expensive than a losing one but then the attendance levels go down when your losing which is why 90% of clubs are losing money and don’t think that winning makes you profit, as Workington sadly found out. As did Hull. All those huge wins with 5-1's slammed in almost for fun come at a cost.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted July 19, 2021 7 hours ago, Fortythirtyeight said: It basically shows that your just making stuff up and speculating on figures you know nothing about. Whilst Premier division points rates are traditionally higher than championship they are no where near your ‘ guesstimates ‘ and only a select few in the Premiership could dream of getting near your £120 a point. Most championship club don’t get anywhere near 1200 paying customers and most have around 50-60% attendees paying ‘ concession ‘ rates, around £12, as they are pensioners ! Every club has its own pay structure but rule of thumb in the championship would be number 1 on around £80 plus per point ( forget Glasgow !) to number seven £40-£45 per point. There will be travel costs to be added and some will do ‘ bonus ‘ payments ( team win, van and or / mechanic contribution ) so you can’t attach a specific figure and make it fit all as crowd levels and sponsorship deals will also come in to play. A winning team is a lot more expensive than a losing one but then the attendance levels go down when your losing which is why 90% of clubs are losing money and don’t think that winning makes you profit, as Workington sadly found out. It was the top league that I was basing my figures on not the 2nd Division, hence the 1200 crowd level requirement, and the average pound per point guesstimate. And on your numbers it looks like it could be more £100 a point on average in the top tier? Which lowers their spend.. Your figures which I am sure will be accurate, mean circa £60 average per point in the 2nd Division which means less than just £6k needs taking in to pay for two matches.. Wow, what a state the sport is in when at around £17 to watch a 2nd level match, it still struggles.. 'Happiness' used to be 40-38. Nowadays 'Happiness' would appear to be winning every match at home 46-44 in a last heat decider, and losing away 75-15... The positive for the sport is that at quite a few tracks, crowds during the pandemic have reached the restricted figure allowed (some being 600 or so in the 2nd Div), so maybe now the restrictions are lifted the crowd levels could become more sustainable.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,962 Posted July 19, 2021 11 hours ago, Fortythirtyeight said: It basically shows that your just making stuff up and speculating on figures you know nothing about. Whilst Premier division points rates are traditionally higher than championship they are no where near your ‘ guesstimates ‘ and only a select few in the Premiership could dream of getting near your £120 a point. Most championship club don’t get anywhere near 1200 paying customers and most have around 50-60% attendees paying ‘ concession ‘ rates, around £12, as they are pensioners ! Every club has its own pay structure but rule of thumb in the championship would be number 1 on around £80 plus per point ( forget Glasgow !) to number seven £40-£45 per point. There will be travel costs to be added and some will do ‘ bonus ‘ payments ( team win, van and or / mechanic contribution ) so you can’t attach a specific figure and make it fit all as crowd levels and sponsorship deals will also come in to play. A winning team is a lot more expensive than a losing one but then the attendance levels go down when your losing which is why 90% of clubs are losing money and don’t think that winning makes you profit, as Workington sadly found out. To be fair as attendances, pay rates and profit/loss numbers are the biggest kept secrets in Speedway, it's difficult to do any sums. As for Bartosz Smarzlik (Zmarzlik) I think you could probably add a zero on the end of £120 a point, probably more going by the numbers Darcy Ward was quoting a few years back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fortythirtyeight 838 Posted July 19, 2021 9 minutes ago, iainb said: To be fair as attendances, pay rates and profit/loss numbers are the biggest kept secrets in Speedway, it's difficult to do any sums. As for Bartosz Smarzlik (Zmarzlik) I think you could probably add a zero on the end of £120 a point, probably more going by the numbers Darcy Ward was quoting a few years back. Most of Polands top team don't pay the stars per point as the elite will be on a set guarantee and a big one at that, as you suggest. Attendances aren’t that big a secret , just ask a promoter or a turnstile operative . As for wages, all riders and mechanics talk, so they know the going rate and who to try and sign for next . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,962 Posted July 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fortythirtyeight said: Most of Polands top team don't pay the stars per point as the elite will be on a set guarantee and a big one at that, as you suggest. Attendances aren’t that big a secret , just ask a promoter or a turnstile operative . As for wages, all riders and mechanics talk, so they know the going rate and who to try and sign for next . OK, can you tell me the attendance for the Leicester vs Scunthorpe match on Saturday the 10th of July? What was the pay rate for each rider? And did the club make a profit or loss on that meeting? I await your numbers, thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skodaman 192 Posted July 19, 2021 17 hours ago, Pieman72 said: They chose this route and it isn't working that's why they are closing, six teams in the Premiership is not viable. Spectators do not want to watch speedway midweek unless your an anorak. I said that because a lot of clubs don't own the stadiums! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fortythirtyeight 838 Posted July 19, 2021 15 minutes ago, iainb said: OK, can you tell me the attendance for the Leicester vs Scunthorpe match on Saturday the 10th of July? What was the pay rate for each rider? And did the club make a profit or loss on that meeting? I await your numbers, thanks. Read the post, it does say ask the right people who were actually there and involved . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,962 Posted July 19, 2021 Just now, Fortythirtyeight said: Read the post, it does say ask the right people who were actually there and involved . OK... I'll make it easier for you, can you tell me just the profit or loss from a club over a season, any club, your choice, any season... I'll leave it up to you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
