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mickthemuppet

Wembley and world finals

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1 hour ago, BOBBATH said:

I got to agree-lots of luck played a part in the one-off World Finals, but at least there was a winner at the end of 20 heats. I guess the Grand Prix system is fairer (maybe) -but how can you have a winner without winning a single Grand Prix event(e.g. Mark Loram)?-Who decided on the points set up  for these meetings-does it make any sense ??

Totally irrelevant, Bob. With any simple points accumulating system, it is all about that - who gathers the most points, not who wins the most meetings. Same with F1, and most motorsports.

If a guy finishes second in every meeting, and gets the most points, he deserves to win. Look at league racing in speedway. Your team may win 12 of the 13 races, and still lose...

EDIT : Jack Biggs won more races than anyone else at the 1951 World Final - and finished third...

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7 hours ago, chunky said:

Totally irrelevant, Bob. With any simple points accumulating system, it is all about that - who gathers the most points, not who wins the most meetings. Same with F1, and most motorsports.

If a guy finishes second in every meeting, and gets the most points, he deserves to win. Look at league racing in speedway. Your team may win 12 of the 13 races, and still lose...

EDIT : Jack Biggs won more races than anyone else at the 1951 World Final - and finished third...

Re 1951 - irrelevant. The winner was the rider with the most points, not he who won the most races.

Still cannot fathom out why they moved away from the winner being decided over 20 heats, where every rider races against all the others.

That’s the wretched circus for you, though.

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21 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Re 1951 - irrelevant. The winner was the rider with the most points, not he who won the most races.

Still cannot fathom out why they moved away from the winner being decided over 20 heats, where every rider races against all the others.

That’s the wretched circus for you, though.

While I agree with you regarding the change from 20 heats, 1951 IS relevant to the conversation. Bob is questioning how Mark Loram could win the title without winning a GP. I made the point that the winner was decided on points total, not meetings won. I further elaborated by stating that the old World Final was also decided by points total, and not on races won. Although it didn't happen, it was possible for rider to win the World Championship without winning a race...

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Interesting comments from all as per usual, thanks folks

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Reference to how to win a meeting or title in less than emphatic fashion reminded me of a semi final of the Midland Riders’ Championship at Birmingham on 13th June 1983, in which there were only 2 points between first and ninth in the finishing order.  Andy Grahame and Neil Collins jointly topped the scorers on 12 points, both with 3 heat wins.  7 riders tied on 10 points, Steve Regeling and Mark Courtney (3 heat wins each), Jan O. Pedersen and Phil Collins (2 heat wins each), Alan Grahame, Phil Crump and Neil Evitts (1 heat win each).  The number of heat wins determined that Regeling, Courtney, Pedersen and Collins qualified for the final, with a run-off between the other three seeing Crump and Evitts join them, with Alan Grahame going to the Coventry final as reserve.  In the final, Alan Grahame took 2 rides and scored 4 points, matching Courtney’s total from 5 rides and bettering Regeling (3) and Crump (0).  He also met Phil Collins in both rides and beat him twice.  Fine margins; who knows how well he might have done if he had qualified from the semi-final, with 10 points normally guaranteeing a top eight finish.  Spare a though too for Steve Bastable, who scored 9 points at Birmingham and only finished in 10th place.

The 2nd semi-final was also staged at Birmingham, the following week, in which the qualifiers were Hans Nielsen 15, Erik Gundersen 14, Tommy Knudsen 12, Simon Wigg 10, Kent Noer 10, Les Collins 10, Peter Ravn 8 and Finn Jensen 8.  Knudsen and Wigg missed the final and were replaced by the next two highest scorers from the second semi-final, Kevin Hawkins (7 points) and Rick Miller (6 points).  Luck of the draw and what a difference a week makes in speedway.

The final was won by Gundersen (15), from Nielsen (13), Andy Grahame (11) and Ravn (11).

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Recollection of the Birmingham meeting in my previous post reminded me of a similar finish in another semi-final I saw, this time the British semi-final of the World Championship at Cradley Heath on 13th June 1966, in which the meeting was won with 12 points, just 2 points more than the lowest qualifing score.  In that meeting Martin Ashby totalled 9 points and finished 9th.  The qualifiers were Trevor Hedge 12 (4 heat wins and a fall), Colin Pratt 12 (3 heat wins), Mike Broadbank 11 (2 heat wins), Norman Hunter 11 (2 heat wins), Eric Boocock 11 (1 heat win), Dave Younghusband 11 (3 heat wins), Nigel Boocock 10 (2 heat wins) and Ken McKinlay 10 (2 heat wins).  There were run-offs for 1st and 3rd places.

in the other sem-final at Halifax Barry Briggs cruised through to the British Final with a 15 point maximum and Ivan Mauger secured the last qualifying place on 9 points.

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On 8/2/2021 at 1:02 PM, chunky said:

While I agree with you regarding the change from 20 heats, 1951 IS relevant to the conversation. Bob is questioning how Mark Loram could win the title without winning a GP. I made the point that the winner was decided on points total, not meetings won. I further elaborated by stating that the old World Final was also decided by points total, and not on races won. Although it didn't happen, it was possible for rider to win the World Championship without winning a race...

Yes Mark was very consistent and rode to  the rules  that were in  place at the time  he deserved his win.A crazy rule though if you look back though , BUT  realistically was a rider ever likely to win a World Title on 10 points without winning a race.?

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59 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Yes Mark was very consistent and rode to  the rules  that were in  place at the time  he deserved his win.A crazy rule though if you look back though , BUT  realistically was a rider ever likely to win a World Title on 10 points without winning a race.?

I would be interested to know which rider won an individual World Final with the least number of wins? I'm guessing that 12 points was the lowest total recorded but how many were winning rides I would be interested to know?

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41 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I would be interested to know which rider won an individual World Final with the least number of wins? I'm guessing that 12 points was the lowest total recorded but how many were winning rides I would be interested to know?

Don’t quote me on this Steve ( if  I am wrong BL65/ Norbold, will put me right !!!).            But  in my reckoning Jack Young, 1951.         ______       Tony Rickardsson.1994. all won the title on twelve points with only two wins each.YOUNG was behind Waterman ( 3 wins)    BIGGS ( 4 wins) in his title win Biggs ran a last in his last outing. Tony Rickardsson 1994 ————.  had two wins and beat Nielsen / Boyce in a runoff Hans was very unlucky had four wins and a exclusion in his 12 point total.

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4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Don’t quote me on this Steve ( if  I am wrong BL65/ Norbold, will put me right !!!).            But  in my reckoning Jack Young, 1951.         ______       Tony Rickardsson.1994. all won the title on twelve points with only two wins each.YOUNG was behind Waterman ( 3 wins)    BIGGS ( 4 wins) in his title win Biggs ran a last in his last outing. Tony Rickardsson 1994 ————.  had two wins and beat Nielsen / Boyce in a runoff Hans was very unlucky had four wins and a exclusion in his 12 point total.

Yes, Sidney. 1951 and 1994, the winners won with only winning two races, the lowest recorded. As you say, the first three in 1951 finished in reverse order to their number of wins - Young 2, Waterman 3, Biggs 4.

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1 hour ago, norbold said:

Yes, Sidney. 1951 and 1994, the winners won with only winning two races, the lowest recorded. As you say, the first three in 1951 finished in reverse order to their number of wins - Young 2, Waterman 3, Biggs 4.

Norbold do you think that Biggs bottled it ( nerves got to him) in his last ride or you just think it was meant to be.? Young then became the first 2nd division rider to win a title and what a rider Jack was often think Aub Lawson gets forgotten though.Another year that i had forgotten about that was strange was in 1993 when SAM won it .He won his first four starts and then ran a last Hans Nielsen and Chris Louis  ending up  behind second and third on 11 points each.

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1 hour ago, norbold said:

Yes, Sidney. 1951 and 1994, the winners won with only winning two races, the lowest recorded. As you say, the first three in 1951 finished in reverse order to their number of wins - Young 2, Waterman 3, Biggs 4.

Going off at a tangent, in 1958 Barry Briggs won only 5 races in winning the World Championship.  He didn't win any in qualifying, being seeded to the final as defending champion, so his sucess was down to preparation and 369.8 seconds racing on the Wembley track.

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5 hours ago, norbold said:

Yes, Sidney. 1951 and 1994, the winners won with only winning two races, the lowest recorded. As you say, the first three in 1951 finished in reverse order to their number of wins - Young 2, Waterman 3, Biggs 4.

...and yet Olsen lost it after registering four wins in 1972! :D

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On 7/21/2021 at 5:32 PM, steve roberts said:

There's a great article about the Internationale in the latest edition of the "Classic Magazine" covering the sixties but no mention about why Harringay was the chosen venue as far as I can see.

Internationale meetings at Wimbledon were a must for me.

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44 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

Internationale meetings at Wimbledon were a must for me.

I never made one unfortunately.

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