Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted August 10, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, BEATTHEBOOKIEBOB said: For the neutral Premier League speedway fan the season is building up to an exciting set of play offs with Wolves, Peterborough, Sheffield, and Belle Vue looking most likely to be the top four - Cases can be made for each club and I hope we can get to the play offs with no more injuries and with Jye Etheridge and possibly Ully returning - Roll on september and I hope Eurosport give the build up to the play offs they deserve - Good luck to all - 5 hours ago, mikebv said: All 'local lads' so get cut far too much slack in my opinion.. If they were not 'local' then they would be getting far more 'feedback'.. Criticise any of them though and the "dribblers" will come out with "have you ever ridden a Speedway bike?" etc..... You can carry one of the twins but not both and whenever both have rode for the Aces it seems to always have been the same.. Wright and the Worralls seem to get a fair few bonus points and not always for being second, hence they will be doing 'ok' from a points money perspective but invariably not positively impacting the scorecard.. And in their "key races" where they are the main Ace they seem to rarely win them.. But to fair to all three, it hasnt ever been much different all their careers.. Very inconsistent and every time you think they will make a breakthrough to a higher level they dont... Both Wolves and Peterborough seem to have more of a team unit, with a much higher desire to win than the Aces having watched them both race at the NSS this year, with their riders heavily involved in encouraging each other in and around the piits. And in Jordan Palin, Peterborough have a kid who can truly go places. Having watched him since his Colts debut he is certainly one who could reach the very top.. His Ht 13 win last night reminded me of a 17 year old Joe Screen riding against the best the league had to offer at that time.. Totally fearless and confident in his own ability, and never putting a wheel wrong. So much so, even Dan with his "Polish Speed", didnt make much of a dent in his lead... His style is very much suited to larger, wider tracks at the moment as he doesnt seem to turn the bike tight enough (and maintain enough speed), on the tighter circuits, but I am sure this will come, and as most of the major competitions are on the bigger Euro circuits this wont hold him back.. A shame the Aces let him go as he was always 'box office' with the Colts... Going back to the Aces, (and all teams). Changing riders at this late stage is hardly worth it to be honest, these lads have spent fortunes on equipment so need to race in both leagues. Be a bit unfair to take earnings potential off them now especially given the amount of meetings ridden so far with Covid and weather issues... And isn't there a transfer window or something that may have passed? The club should of made Jordan follow the path of Dan Bewley i have only see Jordan ride three times live.He has a great style and by going to Peterborough he has come out of a comfort zone and is progressing fast.The last few nights at Premiership level the likes of Wells getting rides is a joke.As for local riders getting a bit more slack never seen that myself Mike being local brings a pressure Edited August 10, 2021 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fourentee 987 Posted August 10, 2021 Interesting points on Jordan Palin there. As it happens, Peter Adams devoted some of his programme notes on Monday to teenagers Leon Flint and Palin (Wolves having hosted the Panthers the previous week), saying of Flint’s progress: “Following and chasing riders who are better than him is a valuable learning curve in itself, but there are limits. “Here last Monday, had he not been excluded for a tapes infringement in heat 8, he would have faced four times GP winner Hans Andersen in all four of his races which, quite frankly, is ridiculous. “Peterborough rising star Jordan Palin meanwhile was given only three of his scheduled four outings for the third away match on the trot and whilst I am not in any way being critical of their team building model, or their game plan as matches unfold, the development of rising star riders won’t be helped by denying them 25% of their races, or exposing them to opponents who are a class apart! ”I spy rule amendments in the winter…” Thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flappy 1,593 Posted August 10, 2021 For some reason the panthers team building has rattled many who wrote them off in march 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scoobydoo 2,253 Posted August 10, 2021 Adams was more than happy to start the season with the assumed advantage of having Tom Bacon as his rising star but as that didnt work in his favour at all much the same as Sheffield's choice of Josh Bates , Palin was chosen by Peterborough as the so called last pick as they finished bottom in 2019 and was the lowest ranked rising star in the premiership which in effect slightly disadvantaged Peterborough, now its seems its an advantage to Peterborough with the way the Panthers team building was carried out with the points available to them he thinks it's wrong, at present he has Ryan Douglas at reserve so theres nothing stopping him doing the same with Flint , or is it just that Rob Lyon is a better TM to use whats at his disposal to maximum effect.. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted August 11, 2021 7 hours ago, Fourentee said: Interesting points on Jordan Palin there. As it happens, Peter Adams devoted some of his programme notes on Monday to teenagers Leon Flint and Palin (Wolves having hosted the Panthers the previous week), saying of Flint’s progress: “Following and chasing riders who are better than him is a valuable learning curve in itself, but there are limits. “Here last Monday, had he not been excluded for a tapes infringement in heat 8, he would have faced four times GP winner Hans Andersen in all four of his races which, quite frankly, is ridiculous. “Peterborough rising star Jordan Palin meanwhile was given only three of his scheduled four outings for the third away match on the trot and whilst I am not in any way being critical of their team building model, or their game plan as matches unfold, the development of rising star riders won’t be helped by denying them 25% of their races, or exposing them to opponents who are a class apart! ”I spy rule amendments in the winter…” Thoughts? But they all ride in the 2nd Division too so are getting plenty of rides to develop against... (Oh hang on).... Exactly the same riders.... Bottom line is if they are good enough they will develop to a first or second division level, if they are not, they won't... And there is always the 3rd Division to go back to if some need to drop the top two leagues and 'start again'.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted August 11, 2021 8 hours ago, Fourentee said: Interesting points on Jordan Palin there. As it happens, Peter Adams devoted some of his programme notes on Monday to teenagers Leon Flint and Palin (Wolves having hosted the Panthers the previous week), saying of Flint’s progress: “Following and chasing riders who are better than him is a valuable learning curve in itself, but there are limits. “Here last Monday, had he not been excluded for a tapes infringement in heat 8, he would have faced four times GP winner Hans Andersen in all four of his races which, quite frankly, is ridiculous. “Peterborough rising star Jordan Palin meanwhile was given only three of his scheduled four outings for the third away match on the trot and whilst I am not in any way being critical of their team building model, or their game plan as matches unfold, the development of rising star riders won’t be helped by denying them 25% of their races, or exposing them to opponents who are a class apart! ”I spy rule amendments in the winter…” Thoughts? Great post do you also believe the weaker reserve should always be in the no 7 berth Fourentee?.I did see at Ipswich the other night that Sheffield swapped Hume and Nielsen at 6/7 nothing wrong with that but in both leagues the number 6 berth away is really tough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mikebv said: But they all ride in the 2nd Division too so are getting plenty of rides to develop against... (Oh hang on).... Exactly the same riders.... Bottom line is if they are good enough they will develop to a first or second division level, if they are not, they won't... And there is always the 3rd Division to go back to if some need to drop the top two leagues and 'start again'.... Going back to yesteryear Doncaster, Tatum, Loram, Screen, Wilson all made it eventually after going full time in the BL because as you said Mike they had the ability.Some others come through and had reasonable careers with struggles along the way and ENDLESS others fell away and failed.An interesting point as you said about the two leagues being similar have a look at Rowe, Palin, Flint, Hume, Kemp there averages in both leagues. Edited August 11, 2021 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagpuss 10,757 Posted August 11, 2021 7 hours ago, scoobydoo said: Adams was more than happy to start the season with the assumed advantage of having Tom Bacon as his rising star but as that didnt work in his favour at all much the same as Sheffield's choice of Josh Bates , Palin was chosen by Peterborough as the so called last pick as they finished bottom in 2019 and was the lowest ranked rising star in the premiership which in effect slightly disadvantaged Peterborough, now its seems its an advantage to Peterborough with the way the Panthers team building was carried out with the points available to them he thinks it's wrong, at present he has Ryan Douglas at reserve so theres nothing stopping him doing the same with Flint , or is it just that Rob Lyon is a better TM to use whats at his disposal to maximum effect.. I think he makes valid general points, don't think on this occasion team or club bias comes into it. Hans is an anomaly in the Flint comment as riders of his class are rarely at reserve but I think the system does need tweaking a bit, FTR's should have four rides and should be in either heat 8, 12 or 14 and not just heat two and then two harder heats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Panthers99 434 Posted August 11, 2021 9 hours ago, Fourentee said: Interesting points on Jordan Palin there. As it happens, Peter Adams devoted some of his programme notes on Monday to teenagers Leon Flint and Palin (Wolves having hosted the Panthers the previous week), saying of Flint’s progress: “Following and chasing riders who are better than him is a valuable learning curve in itself, but there are limits. “Here last Monday, had he not been excluded for a tapes infringement in heat 8, he would have faced four times GP winner Hans Andersen in all four of his races which, quite frankly, is ridiculous. “Peterborough rising star Jordan Palin meanwhile was given only three of his scheduled four outings for the third away match on the trot and whilst I am not in any way being critical of their team building model, or their game plan as matches unfold, the development of rising star riders won’t be helped by denying them 25% of their races, or exposing them to opponents who are a class apart! ”I spy rule amendments in the winter…” Thoughts? I tend to agree. But then is it fair that teams can have riders on an average of over 7.50 when others can't? I can't imagine panthers had much choice when it came to creating a team, due to lack of top end riders. Also we did start with Ully on a 4.00 average, everyone barring Sheffield had the same averaged rider, even Belle Vue and Kings Lynn started with higher averaged reserves. Issue is, Ully had a freak season and Etheridge hasn't put 3 points on his average (slacker) and Bridger.... well Bridger. The grading system has the potential, but let's face it with the current crop of BPSA promoters running it, it will flop. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,620 Posted August 11, 2021 Any tweak to these rules would have a minor impact in practice, but would add a few more paragraphs to the rulebook, but create further opportunities for confusion. The key is to consider how the rules are structured to ensure an exit strategy which allows riders continued progression. This was the major failing of past schemes and is a notable absentee from the current regulations. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fourentee 987 Posted August 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: Great post do you also believe the weaker reserve should always be in the no 7 berth Fourentee?.I did see at Ipswich the other night that Sheffield swapped Hume and Nielsen at 6/7 nothing wrong with that but in both leagues the number 6 berth away is really tough. Good question. And at risk of sitting on the fence, my answer would be “it depends”. Workington in 2018 built a side with, in effect, half-a-dozen six to seven point riders plus Kyle Bickley as a developing local to learn his trade without pressure to score. Very much a rising star scenario, really. As you say, although six is tough, team boss Tony Jackson moved him there because he would have gate one or two in heat two at home. He started to win that heat and confidence rose accordingly. Good management. As a general thought, I’d like to see rising stars get their four rides (minimum) but at the same time I’m not wild about rules which restrict team managers’ ability to use their own skill set to affect matches. I like to see the Lyons and Adamses of this world in action. So, conflicted really! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fourentee 987 Posted August 11, 2021 8 hours ago, scoobydoo said: Adams was more than happy to start the season with the assumed advantage of having Tom Bacon as his rising star but as that didnt work in his favour at all much the same as Sheffield's choice of Josh Bates , Palin was chosen by Peterborough as the so called last pick as they finished bottom in 2019 and was the lowest ranked rising star in the premiership which in effect slightly disadvantaged Peterborough, now its seems its an advantage to Peterborough with the way the Panthers team building was carried out with the points available to them he thinks it's wrong, at present he has Ryan Douglas at reserve so theres nothing stopping him doing the same with Flint , or is it just that Rob Lyon is a better TM to use whats at his disposal to maximum effect.. To be honest, it didn’t strike me as a partisan piece so much as airing a problem with rider development. I presume you’re pointing at the greater experience of Bacon and Bates (although Bacon came late to the sport, did he not?), and I certainly take that point. As for “he thinks it’s wrong (Peterborough’s team building)”, he specifically says he’s not criticising it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigcatdiary 3,164 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Fourentee said: Interesting points on Jordan Palin there. As it happens, Peter Adams devoted some of his programme notes on Monday to teenagers Leon Flint and Palin (Wolves having hosted the Panthers the previous week), saying of Flint’s progress: “Following and chasing riders who are better than him is a valuable learning curve in itself, but there are limits. “Here last Monday, had he not been excluded for a tapes infringement in heat 8, he would have faced four times GP winner Hans Andersen in all four of his races which, quite frankly, is ridiculous. “Peterborough rising star Jordan Palin meanwhile was given only three of his scheduled four outings for the third away match on the trot and whilst I am not in any way being critical of their team building model, or their game plan as matches unfold, the development of rising star riders won’t be helped by denying them 25% of their races, or exposing them to opponents who are a class apart! ”I spy rule amendments in the winter…” Thoughts? As others have said Adams was quite happy to start this year with 28 year old Tom Bacon as a rising star, (which like Josh Bates was an utter disgrace) only to see Bacon retire and leaving Wolves with Flint. As with a lot of new ideas the Rising Star plan was in principle a good idea but damaged by poor thought out rules, some of which are not in the public domain. The fact that practically all of them now have effective GSA but these are yet to be published suggests some will take advantage as Rowe did when guesting for Bates at Sheffield recently. They should all have been given assessed averages and had them included in a team building limit as per past seasons. Many people on here wrote the Panthers off at the start of the season but the team with the help of an astute team manager has well exceeded expectations and this has clearly rattled some of the old guard who didn’t see it coming. For the record I still see Wolves as favourites as their team is very good and has a serious home track advantage but this year has caused more than its fair share of interesting results and their could be more to come. Edited August 11, 2021 by bigcatdiary 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted August 11, 2021 By "protecting" the RS the danger is you will build "flat track bullies" who get used to beating their peer group only, and also some teams will end up with riders well in advance of the average RS rider, so getting all the advantages of having him ride in protected heats.. Wasnt that why the last "system" tried failed? Jordan Palin the other night showed a simple fact.. If you are good enough then you will compete, if you are not good enough then you wont... That is sport.. The perfect obvious stepping stone scenario would be to only run the RS system in the 2nd Division, but as 90% of all 1st Division riders ride in it, many will be found just as wanting in that league too if not of the required capability.. However, again, that is sport.. And the aim of the RS scheme isn't dont forget to make "World Class Superstars", but it is in place to make "decent riders" who can hold down team places in the top two leagues, thus meaning less reliance on "journeymen foreign" riders, especially post Brexit.. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bellevueace 912 Posted August 11, 2021 23 hours ago, mikebv said: I am sure Mark will say that "of course myself and the riders are disappointed" and that "certain riders obviously know they can do better", but that "it certainly isn't through any lack of trying that they are struggling" and that they "will come back from this setback much stronger I am sure" and that "we all look forward to the next meeting" as there is still "lots to ride for this season"... One thing noticeable.about last night was the amount of young kids in attendance which must be a positive going forward. Many seemed to have 'noisy fan shape type things' which make noise when shook, with the Aces emblem on them which I presume were given away? Another thing noticeable (again as it was the same the other time I have been this year) is the lady on the centre green talking whilst music is still being constantly played in the background, meaning you can't hear what she is saying... £41 for me and my student lad to sit in the seats last night, £27 two weeks ago to stand at Poole.. (£37 to stand at BV).. Basically £14 to watch Dan Bewley given the similar levels of all the riders in both meetings (some are the same rider so you can't get more similar than that)!! Dan's good, but not sure fourteen quid worth of 'good'... You,ve nailed the managerial default mode statement there, it was good to see more kids coming along but with Dan i would imagine being the latest to decamp to Poland next season (understandable) and there being doubts hanging over a few clubs the future of the sport in the UK is at a tipping point, the only difference in the top two leagues as you say is being able to pay less to see the same riders except for a couple at Championship tracks, throw in the poor entertainment at the NSS too this season and its not been a good return from lockdown entertainment wise. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
