For or against the GP series.?

[chunky 6,081]

30 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Agree re "occasion." 81 was the complete package, it wasn't great just because of the racing.

Would disagree re Davis. The best rider missing on form was Phil Crump (Crump for Ross was about the only change you could make to strengthen the lineup). The likes of Mauger, the Morans, Sigalos, Les and Peter Collins would all have been bigger threats on the night than Davis .

Agree, from what i have seen the 76 final was arguably the best for racing - maybe biased because a lot of that came from the deserving world champion.

Well, JD was pushing a 10 point average at the time, whereas Sigalos had slipped a bit after moving to Ipswich. Crumpy SHOULD have been a much better rider in World Finals, but usually struggled on the night, and I think Larry's best years were at Plough Lane; he never developed after leaving us. I do see Crump as a better option, though. Davis is a weird one though - like Eric Boocock; superb in domestic action, but never really comfortable at the top level.

It's funny you say about the best action in '76 coming from the "deserving champion" - you could say exactly the same about 1981! And a lot of the GP seasons... 

[waiheke1 4,295]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

Well, JD was pushing a 10 point average at the time, whereas Sigalos had slipped a bit after moving to Ipswich. Crumpy SHOULD have been a much better rider in World Finals, but usually struggled on the night, and I think Larry's best years were at Plough Lane; he never developed after leaving us. I do see Crump as a better option, though. Davis is a weird one though - like Eric Boocock; superb in domestic action, but never really comfortable at the top level.

It's funny you say about the best action in '76 coming from the "deserving champion" - you could say exactly the same about 1981! And a lot of the GP seasons... 

I did stats analyis of each season in the 80s, and while you could argue the weightings used, Davis ranked 24th - behind other brits such as Kennett, Bastable and Alan Grahame. As a reference, Crump was ranked 8th, thr only top ten rider not in the field

Agree Davis never performed at the very highest level, with the exception of 1980. After a dip in form mid-80s i recall him having a superb 1985. 

I don't think you'll find a bigger Larry Ross fan than me, I'd say his peak ran 79-82 - his only world final appearance was after moving to Aces, and he was cornerstone of their 82BL title win, topping their away averages. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by waiheke1

[chunky 6,081]

4 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

I don't think you'll find a bigger Larry Ross fan than me, I'd say his peak ran 79-82 - his only world final appearance was after moving to Aces, and he was cornerstone of their 82BL title win, topping their away averages. 

Remember, I was a big Larry Ross fan too! While he was with us, he was always known as a Hyde Rd specialist, but when he finally got the move up there, he just never really blossomed as he SHOULD have done.

He should have qualified for the '79 World Final...

[waiheke1 4,295]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

Remember, I was a big Larry Ross fan too! While he was with us, he was always known as a Hyde Rd specialist, but when he finally got the move up there, he just never really blossomed as he SHOULD have done.

He should have qualified for the '79 World Final...

79 was his best year, i would agree, arguably in the world's top ten riders thst season. So on that basis, can understand you saying he never kicked on. Arguably he didnt invest enough in top bikes (the 81 final he blew his best motor the night before), certainly in the latter years of his British career. 

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

4 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

I did stats analyis of each season in the 80s, and while you could argue the weightings used, Davis ranked 24th - behind other brits such as Kennett, Bastable and Alan Grahame. As a reference, Crump was ranked 8th, thr only top ten rider not in the field

Agree Davis never performed at the very highest level, with the exception of 1980. After a dip in form mid-80s i recall him having a superb 1985. 

I don't think you'll find a bigger Larry Ross fan than me, I'd say his peak ran 79-82 - his only world final appearance was after moving to Aces, and he was cornerstone of their 82BL title win, topping their away averages. 

I often thought the result of the USA and Australian final meetings  had a huge impact on the actual line up for the final.Both cut throat meetings Crump suffered badly from this Shawn Moran/ Sigalos were two others who suffered also Autrey in 1979 was hit hard through his dispute with the Authorities.

[fatface 2,549]

7 hours ago, chunky said:

Well, JD was pushing a 10 point average at the time, whereas Sigalos had slipped a bit after moving to Ipswich. Crumpy SHOULD have been a much better rider in World Finals, but usually struggled on the night, and I think Larry's best years were at Plough Lane; he never developed after leaving us. I do see Crump as a better option, though. Davis is a weird one though - like Eric Boocock; superb in domestic action, but never really comfortable at the top level.

It's funny you say about the best action in '76 coming from the "deserving champion" - you could say exactly the same about 1981! And a lot of the GP seasons... 

 

4 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

I did stats analyis of each season in the 80s, and while you could argue the weightings used, Davis ranked 24th - behind other brits such as Kennett, Bastable and Alan Grahame. As a reference, Crump was ranked 8th, thr only top ten rider not in the field

Agree Davis never performed at the very highest level, with the exception of 1980. After a dip in form mid-80s i recall him having a superb 1985. 

I don't think you'll find a bigger Larry Ross fan than me, I'd say his peak ran 79-82 - his only world final appearance was after moving to Aces, and he was cornerstone of their 82BL title win, topping their away averages. 

Surprised John Davis being mentioned as a top rider. I just never saw him that way at all. I'm sure I read somewhere Mavis himself suggesting he could have been world champion under a GP system, which is laughable. Stick him on a slick dust bowl and he could be competitive with his gating and good equipment, but talent wise, he was never in the world's elite. He couldn't hold his line effectively like a world class rider can. Most races in which he features on YouTube, he is getting overtaken by better riders. That he managed to reach the 88 World Final was more an indication of the loss of so many big names in a short space of time.

As for Larry Ross, I'd concur with Waiheke1. He lost his edge from 83 when he was on the way down. But in 81 & 82, he did everything and more that could be expected of him. He filled the boots of PC well in 81 and was the key man in winning the title in 82, outperforming Mort and PC away from home as well as stepping up and delivering in umpteen last heat deciders, especially at Reading and Coventry to give the Aces title winning 40-38 wins. He brought the happiness 

Edited September 1, 2021 by falcace

[steve roberts 9,242]

16 minutes ago, falcace said:

 

Surprised John Davis being mentioned as a top rider. I just never saw him that way at all. I'm sure I read somewhere Mavis himself suggesting he could have been world champion under a GP system, which is laughable. Stick him on a slick dust bowl and he could be competitive with his gating and good equipment, but talent wise, he was never in the world's elite. He couldn't hold his line effectively like a world class rider can. Most races in which he features on YouTube, he is getting overtaken by better riders.

As for Larry Ross, I'd concur with Waiheke1. He lost his edge from 83 when he was on the way down. But in 81 & 82, he did everything and more that could be expected of him. He filled the boots of PC well in 81 and was the key man in winning the title in 82, outperforming Mort and PC away from home as well as stepping up and delivering in umpteen last heat deciders, especially at Reading and Coventry to give the Aces title winning 40-38 wins. He brought the happiness 

Agree with you entirely. I saw a lot of him at Oxford (1972, 73 & 74) and his strong point was his gating and he was never known to being the best exponent at passing riders. Very articulate and forthright in his views and was good at attracting sponsors but as a rider he was never up there with the best.

Edited September 1, 2021 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Agree with you entirely. I saw a lot of him at Oxford (1972, 73 & 74) and his strong point was his gating and he was never known to being the best exponent at passing riders. Very articulate and forthright in his views and was good at attracting sponsors but as a rider he was never up there with the best.

I see alot of him over the years and  i never rated him, he was a good gater and he had top notch aquipment but he was never an elite rider.Also see him quite a bit at Reading and his team riding skills were non existent  often on the best gates with the lesser team mate.

[BL65 655]

Although John Davis may not have been considered an 'elite' rider, he nevertheless had a few notable achievements in meetings featuring top riders of his day:
- Gained a World Team Cup winner’s medal in the 1977 Final in Poland, scoring 6 from two rides against Poland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
- Won the 1978 Ullevi round of the Master of Speedway GP, ahead of Peter Collins, Olsen, Lee, Simmons, Jessup, Crump, Kennett, Mauger, Michanek, Sanders and Louis.
- Won The Laurels in 1978 at Wimbledon, against Kennett, Simmons, Crump, Jancarz, Ross and Jessup.
- Won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic at Wimbledon, against a line-up including Peter Collins, Schwartz, Nielsen, Ross, Penhall, Kennett, Jessup, Lee, Louis and Simmons.
- Won The Laurels in 1981 at Wimbledon, against Chris Morton, Les and Peter Collins, Simmons, Schwartz, Kennett, Kelly Moran and Ross.
- Won the prestigious Golden Helmet of Pardubice in 1984, beating King and Stancl in the final.

[chunky 6,081]

14 minutes ago, BL65 said:

Although John Davis may not have been considered an 'elite' rider, he nevertheless had a few notable achievements in meetings featuring top riders of his day:
- Gained a World Team Cup winner’s medal in the 1977 Final in Poland, scoring 6 from two rides against Poland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
- Won the 1978 Ullevi round of the Master of Speedway GP, ahead of Peter Collins, Olsen, Lee, Simmons, Jessup, Crump, Kennett, Mauger, Michanek, Sanders and Louis.
- Won The Laurels in 1978 at Wimbledon, against Kennett, Simmons, Crump, Jancarz, Ross and Jessup.
- Won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic at Wimbledon, against a line-up including Peter Collins, Schwartz, Nielsen, Ross, Penhall, Kennett, Jessup, Lee, Louis and Simmons.
- Won The Laurels in 1981 at Wimbledon, against Chris Morton, Les and Peter Collins, Simmons, Schwartz, Kennett, Kelly Moran and Ross.
- Won the prestigious Golden Helmet of Pardubice in 1984, beating King and Stancl in the final.

We had a discussion about JD on here a while back, and we said the same then. Nobody ever regarded him as being that good, but when he was good, he was surprisingly good! He was actually a lot better than people think...

[steve roberts 9,242]

7 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I see alot of him over the years and  i never rated him, he was a good gater and he had top notch aquipment but he was never an elite rider.Also see him quite a bit at Reading and his team riding skills were non existent  often on the best gates with the lesser team mate.

His period at Oxford was also the same time as Gordon Kennett so I was fortunate in witnessing the development of both during their early years in the British League. Gordon was a far better rider in my opinion but what held him back was his inability to gate during his formative years. He becme more consistant as his "Star" rose but he eventually returned to the National League when he began to struggle whereas John's career was somewhat longer in the top flight more down to his gating if anything else.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

5 hours ago, BL65 said:

Although John Davis may not have been considered an 'elite' rider, he nevertheless had a few notable achievements in meetings featuring top riders of his day:
- Gained a World Team Cup winner’s medal in the 1977 Final in Poland, scoring 6 from two rides against Poland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
- Won the 1978 Ullevi round of the Master of Speedway GP, ahead of Peter Collins, Olsen, Lee, Simmons, Jessup, Crump, Kennett, Mauger, Michanek, Sanders and Louis.
- Won The Laurels in 1978 at Wimbledon, against Kennett, Simmons, Crump, Jancarz, Ross and Jessup.
- Won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic at Wimbledon, against a line-up including Peter Collins, Schwartz, Nielsen, Ross, Penhall, Kennett, Jessup, Lee, Louis and Simmons.
- Won The Laurels in 1981 at Wimbledon, against Chris Morton, Les and Peter Collins, Simmons, Schwartz, Kennett, Kelly Moran and Ross.
- Won the prestigious Golden Helmet of Pardubice in 1984, beating King and Stancl in the final.

I see him win the Manpower meeting at Reading ( Penhall rode ) in 1978? he was good  awesome that night .

[steve roberts 9,242]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

I see him win the Manpower meeting at Reading ( Penhall rode ) in 1978? he was good  awesome that night .

..and the Geoff Curtis Memorial Meeting when he beat both Dag Lovaas and Tommy Jansson in a run-off after they had all scored 14 points.

[fatface 2,549]

7 hours ago, BL65 said:

Although John Davis may not have been considered an 'elite' rider, he nevertheless had a few notable achievements in meetings featuring top riders of his day:
- Gained a World Team Cup winner’s medal in the 1977 Final in Poland, scoring 6 from two rides against Poland, Sweden and Czechoslovakia.
- Won the 1978 Ullevi round of the Master of Speedway GP, ahead of Peter Collins, Olsen, Lee, Simmons, Jessup, Crump, Kennett, Mauger, Michanek, Sanders and Louis.
- Won The Laurels in 1978 at Wimbledon, against Kennett, Simmons, Crump, Jancarz, Ross and Jessup.
- Won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic at Wimbledon, against a line-up including Peter Collins, Schwartz, Nielsen, Ross, Penhall, Kennett, Jessup, Lee, Louis and Simmons.
- Won The Laurels in 1981 at Wimbledon, against Chris Morton, Les and Peter Collins, Simmons, Schwartz, Kennett, Kelly Moran and Ross.
- Won the prestigious Golden Helmet of Pardubice in 1984, beating King and Stancl in the final.

Thanks for that. I must say, I don't dismiss Davis as a nobody. He was decent enough and actually, I'd have him down as someone who got the maximum from his ability. But when I see that list, its main thrust is that he could do well at Wimbledon. That doesn't mean he was an elite rider. 

The Master of Speedway is probably the best of that list. The 1977 WTC, well, that was a time when England's biggest opposition would be England B or England C. The Czech Golden Helmet is also a great one to win, but was he beating a keyed up Nielsen, Gundersen, Sanders, Knudsen, Moran, Morton, Wigg etc? Stancl doesn't quite cut it for elite. 

[chunky 6,081]

There were others. Davis won the Sussex Open Championship at Eastbourne in 1978 (ahead of Kennett, Crump, and Sanders), the Artdeans Trophy at Swindon in 1979 (ahead of Crump and Autrey), and the Yorkshire Open at Sheffield in 1977. He won that with a maximum from riders like Jessup, Wyer, Lee, Coliins, and Olsen.

Edited September 2, 2021 by chunky