For or against the GP series.?

[bill94d 105]

12 minutes ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

I only saw Craven ride once, and that was on the terrible night in Edinburgh. I went to his memorial service in 2003, at Liverpool Cathedral out of respect for the man. In his eulogy Ove Fundin openly admitted he would not have won as many titles as he did had Peter lived.  Bartosz Smarslik pushes the boundaries. Perhaps he can with air fences and modern helmets and padding, but these boys had none of that. I hope he stays serious accident free because he is exciting. RIP Peter Craven.

Edited August 30, 2021 by bill94d
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[lbw 869]

I went to Bradford '85 and it was a fantastic spectacle but only half or 2 thirds of the riders in one off world finals were of the required level. That's why the BLRC was often referred to as having a stronger field than a world final.

The GP's are better although I would have the winner of each of the top 6 country's national title (Poland, Russia, Australia, GB, Sweden & Denmark) to qualify for the full series. If the national champion is already in the GP then that place should revert to a wildcard pick from any nation.

This could also give more encouragement to riders who don't ride in their national championship to come back 

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 hour ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

Surely you acknowledge that Peter was a superb talent  i never see  him  ride but my uncle did on numerous occasions and he raved about him so that was good anough for me.Bartosz i love watching him ride but to mention those other guys ( eras apart ) not even worth considering great riders would adjust to any era in my view put the great Tom Farndon in that mix as well.

[lbw 869]

I loved watching Gerald Short , give him some boards and he would ride 'em!

He'd be great riding the Waves of Wimborne Road with a 'surf' board!  

[norbold 7,106]

2 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

 

Absolutely correct, ktl, but then if you can't make a judgemental comparison, why say, "Zmarzlik is incredible to watch, a hundred times more spectacular than Mauger, Briggs, Olsen and many others put together and he pulls off moves you would never have see any of those afore mentioned riders make"?

I saw Craven ride many times so I feel well qualified to make that comparison.

[OveFundinFan 4,140]

59 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Surely you acknowledge that Peter was a superb talent  i never see  him  ride but my uncle did on numerous occasions and he raved about him so that was good anough for me.Bartosz i love watching him ride but to mention those other guys ( eras apart ) not even worth considering great riders would adjust to any era in my view put the great Tom Farndon in that mix as well.

Peter did indeed have a great talent. We know his nickname was “the wizard of balance”. I think he was 5’ 2”, so small. We see many photos of him with his head as low as the left handlebar. Not always his riding style, more when he was riding the inside line. Remember that in the 50’s/60’s handlebars were wide and often upswept. This made it the more incredible his style of riding. Getting his head down low would put centre of gravity low, which no doubt helped his balance.  

Whilst a great talent, and one of the famous five ( Knutson came good 1959/60), his performance in the world finals was perhaps not as consistent as the others. For example 1959 9th, 1961 10th, and 1963 10th (his last world final). Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven were pretty much same age…. All born 1933 or 1934, so they were all rose to their peak at the same time, and about to start their decline (the Mauger years staring in 1968). Whether Peter would have won any more world titles we will never know, but I would say it was not a cert.                                             

I never heard Fundins eulogy at Peters funeral, but I don’t understand where it is said Ove said he would not have won as many world titles as he did if Peter had lived. Ove won in 1963, Peters last final (Wembley). when he finished 10th, and Ove only won one more world title, 1967, meaning Fundin had already won four.  This is taking nothing way from Peters record, it’s just a fact.
 

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

1 minute ago, OveFundinFan said:

Peter did indeed have a great talent. We know his nickname was “the wizard of balance”. I think he was 5’ 2”, so small. We see many photos of him with his head as low as the left handlebar. Not always his riding style, more when he was riding the inside line. Remember that in the 50’s/60’s handlebars were wide and often upswept. This made it the more incredible his style of riding. Getting his head down low would put centre of gravity low, which no doubt helped his balance.  

Whilst a great talent, and one of the famous five ( Knutson came good 1959/60), his performance in the world finals was perhaps not as consistent as the others. For example 1959 9th, 1961 10th, and 1963 10th (his last world final). Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven were pretty much same age…. All born 1933 or 1934, so they were all rose to their peak at the same time, and about to start their decline (the Mauger years staring in 1968). Whether Peter would have won any more world titles we will never know, but I would say it was not a cert.                                             

I never heard Fundins eulogy at Peters funeral, but I don’t understand where it is said Ove said he would not have won as many world titles as he did if Peter had lived. Ove won in 1963, Peters last final (Wembley). when he finished 10th, and Ove only won one more world title, 1967, meaning Fundin had already won four.  This is taking nothing way from Peters record, it’s just a fact.
 

A real talent Craven in a terrific era great rider looking back Ove but Barry did very well to  win  the titles he did  the opposition was sublime really tough.

[bill94d 105]

29 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Peter did indeed have a great talent. We know his nickname was “the wizard of balance”. I think he was 5’ 2”, so small. We see many photos of him with his head as low as the left handlebar. Not always his riding style, more when he was riding the inside line. Remember that in the 50’s/60’s handlebars were wide and often upswept. This made it the more incredible his style of riding. Getting his head down low would put centre of gravity low, which no doubt helped his balance.  

Whilst a great talent, and one of the famous five ( Knutson came good 1959/60), his performance in the world finals was perhaps not as consistent as the others. For example 1959 9th, 1961 10th, and 1963 10th (his last world final). Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Craven were pretty much same age…. All born 1933 or 1934, so they were all rose to their peak at the same time, and about to start their decline (the Mauger years staring in 1968). Whether Peter would have won any more world titles we will never know, but I would say it was not a cert.                                             

I never heard Fundins eulogy at Peters funeral, but I don’t understand where it is said Ove said he would not have won as many world titles as he did if Peter had lived. Ove won in 1963, Peters last final (Wembley). when he finished 10th, and Ove only won one more world title, 1967, meaning Fundin had already won four.  This is taking nothing way from Peters record, it’s just a fact.
 

Please note that I quoted “titles”, not necessarily world crowns. He also said that he was the fairest rider of his time and he (Fundin) was always happy to ride outside Craven.

[chunky 6,091]

3 hours ago, PirateShip said:

I went to Bradford '85 and it was a fantastic spectacle but only half or 2 thirds of the riders in one off world finals were of the required level.

That is a point I have repeatedly made on here. I think in some of the following years, there were several finals that were equally weak.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

4 hours ago, keepturningleft said:

No intention to disparage the great riders from the past, but few, if any people on this forum ever saw Craven ride and there is precious little action footage of him, so we can't really make a judgemental comparison other than listening to other people's reminiscences. 

 

You could say that about Tommy Price and Fred Williams but we all have a view.!,

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sidney the robin

[OveFundinFan 4,140]

4 minutes ago, bill94d said:

Please note that I quoted “titles”, not necessarily world crowns. He also said that he was the fairest rider of his time and he (Fundin) was always happy to ride outside Craven.

Peter was indeed a very clean rider, I cannot remember him doing a dirty on anyone. Despite his short height he wasn’t an easy pushover though. Fundin, on the other hand, was considered to not ride cleanly all the time. Having said that, I never saw Fundin do anything dirty to PC. I think he had great respect towards Peter. PC was a man for the fans, always willing to sign autographs and have chat when he could. I remember the shock and sadness in our household when we heard Peter had passed away.

[customhouseregular 1,651]

3 hours ago, PirateShip said:

I went to Bradford '85 and it was a fantastic spectacle but only half or 2 thirds of the riders in one off world finals were of the required level. That's why the BLRC was often referred to as having a stronger field than a world final.

The GP's are better although I would have the winner of each of the top 6 country's national title (Poland, Russia, Australia, GB, Sweden & Denmark) to qualify for the full series. If the national champion is already in the GP then that place should revert to a wildcard pick from any nation.

This could also give more encouragement to riders who don't ride in their national championship to come back 

The BLRC and the Internationale had great fields and were great meetings in their own way. But... the WF had drama and Wembley had magic. Most GP’s don’t have drama, there’s another one in two weeks, and Cardiff had zero magic compared to Wembley on my only visit to Cardiff. I can’t comment on other WF venues. Rose- coloured glasses maybe, but I have rarely seen a GP to compare with the BLRC. Hyde park was a magic night.

[lbw 869]

13 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

The BLRC and the Internationale had great fields and were great meetings in their own way. But... the WF had drama and Wembley had magic. Most GP’s don’t have drama, there’s another one in two weeks, and Cardiff had zero magic compared to Wembley on my only visit to Cardiff. I can’t comment on other WF venues. Rose- coloured glasses maybe, but I have rarely seen a GP to compare with the BLRC. Hyde park was a magic night.

Hyde Park? 

Must admit I would have loved to have gone to a Wembley world final especially '81 which was arguably the greatest of all finals. 

Comparing the old Wembley with anywhere else is always like comparing night with day. Went there for football but sadly the speedway was no longer there. 

[chunky 6,091]

18 minutes ago, PirateShip said:

Hyde Park?

Yeah; when they missed the corner, and ended up in the Serpentine...

[chunky 6,091]

50 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

the WF had drama and Wembley had magic. Most GP’s don’t have drama

The World Final may have had drama - sometimes. It also had a relatively weak field based on nationality.

Wembley had magic. Can't argue that, but why do we hang on to something that's been dead for 40 years? Even if we had a new Wembley track, it wouldn't get close to the old one.

Did you see the Wroclaw GP in 2019? Racing-wise - and drama-wise - it was the greatest meeting I have ever seen. And I'm not the only one on here to say that.