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26 minutes ago, iris123 said:

You'll have to point out which quali meetings Briggo rode in ,in 1958 

I also am finding it difficult to find Fundin in the Nordic, Continental or European Finals in 1957

Or Peter Collins in the British final in 77...or penhall in the American final in 85...or the years there was no rider from the host country in the world final...

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2 hours ago, Welwyn said:

How about?

Top 6 through.

7-14 join 8 qualifiers in the GP Challenge. 15th misses completely.

Top 6 in GP Challenge Qualify.

Leaves 3 spots:

1 goes to SEC Champ.

2 Wildcards (allows for covering riders who get injured and end up in 15th or miss the Challenge as a result).

Love this. GP Challenge deserve to be a bigger thing, it is a massive part of our season and the fact that it oftentimes have gotten overlooked and not even been broadcasted is a disgrace.

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2 hours ago, iris123 said:

You'll have to point out which quali meetings Briggo rode in ,in 1958 

I also am finding it difficult to find Fundin in the Nordic, Continental or European Finals in 1957

I'm sure Olsen was the same one year?

Plus riders were seeded to different stages of their own qualifying rounds too...

It annoys me when I hear people complain about the top guys being "seeded" these days. They are NOT seeded. They have to qualify by competing against the world's top riders for a whole GP season the previous year.

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2 hours ago, iris123 said:

You'll have to point out which quali meetings Briggo rode in ,in 1958 

I also am finding it difficult to find Fundin in the Nordic, Continental or European Finals in 1957

OK..I admit my interest and experience of WC speedway started in the early 60’s, but if anyone was seeded from that time I apologise for my error.

 

 

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2 hours ago, iris123 said:

You'll have to point out which quali meetings Briggo rode in ,in 1958 

I also am finding it difficult to find Fundin in the Nordic, Continental or European Finals in 1957

My experience of WC speedway started in the early 60’s. If any rider was seeded from then I apologise for my error.

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41 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

My experience of WC speedway started in the early 60’s. If any rider was seeded from then I apologise for my error.

Several times, Ole Olsen was seeded directly to the Nordic Final, and a couple of times, he reached the World Final after riding in only two meetings.

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1 hour ago, chunky said:

I'm sure Olsen was the same one year?

Plus riders were seeded to different stages of their own qualifying rounds too...

It annoys me when I hear people complain about the top guys being "seeded" these days. They are NOT seeded. They have to qualify by competing against the world's top riders for a whole GP season the previous year.

I think the point I am trying is make is being missed. Unless I am wrong no rider in say 1966 could become WC without qualifying from at least one meeting in 1966. I don’t remember Bjorn Knutsson being seeded to the 1966 final as reigning champion. In essence the GP’s are a World Final spread over a series of rounds. Without the Russian ban Laguta would have been in this year’s WF series, not having had to qualify this year. Therefore Mauger, Fundin and Briggs were at a disadvantage in the 60’s and 70’s compared to Laguta, Hancock and Woffinden. Under the GP system riders are seeded on the basis of the previous year. The previous generation were not. 

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9 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

I think the point I am trying is make is being missed. Unless I am wrong no rider in say 1966 could become WC without qualifying from at least one meeting in 1966. I don’t remember Bjorn Knutsson being seeded to the 1966 final as reigning champion. In essence the GP’s are a World Final spread over a series of rounds. Without the Russian ban Laguta would have been in this year’s WF series, not having had to qualify this year. Therefore Mauger, Fundin and Briggs were at a disadvantage in the 60’s and 70’s compared to Laguta, Hancock and Woffinden. Under the GP system riders are seeded on the basis of the previous year. The previous generation were not. 

To summarise… I believe at the end of the series every rider should have to qualify for a next series. We may end up with a completely different field, but Mauger, Fundin and Briggs proved the best will usually come through.

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10 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

I think the point I am trying is make is being missed. Unless I am wrong no rider in say 1966 could become WC without qualifying from at least one meeting in 1966. I don’t remember Bjorn Knutsson being seeded to the 1966 final as reigning champion. In essence the GP’s are a World Final spread over a series of rounds. Without the Russian ban Laguta would have been in this year’s WF series, not having had to qualify this year. Therefore Mauger, Fundin and Briggs were at a disadvantage in the 60’s and 70’s compared to Laguta, Hancock and Woffinden. Under the GP system riders are seeded on the basis of the previous year. The previous generation were not. 

No. "Seeding" is qualifying without competing, which is NOT what the GP riders do. They qualify from their performances the previous year, which is by far the hardest means of qualification, particularly for riders like Lambert, Fricke, and Thomsen. They are up against the very best the sport has to offer several times a year. Coming through a handful of qualifying meetings against mediocre riders is a lot easier than QUALIFYING from the GP's themselves.

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2 minutes ago, chunky said:

No. "Seeding" is qualifying without competing, which is NOT what the GP riders do. They qualify from their performances the previous year, which is by far the hardest means of qualification, particularly for riders like Lambert, Fricke, and Thomsen. They are up against the very best the sport has to offer several times a year. Coming through a handful of qualifying meetings against mediocre riders is a lot easier than QUALIFYING from the GP's themselves.

Let’s agree to differ shall we?. 

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13 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

Let’s agree to differ shall we?. 

The problem is that you can't get your head around the fact that it is not "seeding". Look, let's take darts. The bulk of the World Championship field is made up from the rankings. In other words, players battle it out over a number of tournaments during the year, and get points based on their performances. Fair? The GP is just the same. Riders compete not only tp be World Champion, but to QUALIFY for the following year.

When you have a series lasting several months, it os virtualli impossible - and unfair - to introduce various qualification systems on top of the main qualification system

You are making a common mistake. As a speedway fan, you are still thinking, "Well, this is the way we've always done it, so it must be the best!"

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Everyone in this years world championship number 1-15 qualified by what they did last year.        
first 6 in last years championship qualified by being top point scores in the previous years GP series.  (was it 8 rounds, usually 10ish)          
first 3 in last years GP Challenge final last year this qualifies for this years GP series, they have qualifying rounds too..    
first in last years European championship, run over three rounds.       
5 riders are selected/qualify at the organisers discretion taking into account their performance and injuries etc in the previous year.             
no 16 is perhaps the only one that doesn’t need to qualify, and that is arguable.

that’s how I see it. This years gp is not some closed club to some riders, each and every one has qualified in some manner. Ok, occasionally someone gets through the system and gets into the GPs but he has had to work at it.

I loved the one off world final, the atmosphere was great, but also love the current GP system where the best rider over the season is world champ. Not only has the winner needed to ride each different track well, he has had to select the right engine/setup for different tracks.

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18 hours ago, Welwyn said:

How about?

Top 6 through.

7-14 join 8 qualifiers in the GP Challenge. 15th misses completely.

Top 6 in GP Challenge Qualify.

Leaves 3 spots:

1 goes to SEC Champ.

2 Wildcards (allows for covering riders who get injured and end up in 15th or miss the Challenge as a result).

I would regard that as pretty much a perfect set up.

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1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

Everyone in this years world championship number 1-15 qualified by what they did last year.        
first 6 in last years championship qualified by being top point scores in the previous years GP series.  (was it 8 rounds, usually 10ish)          
first 3 in last years GP Challenge final last year this qualifies for this years GP series, they have qualifying rounds too..    
first in last years European championship, run over three rounds.       
5 riders are selected/qualify at the organisers discretion taking into account their performance and injuries etc in the previous year.             
no 16 is perhaps the only one that doesn’t need to qualify, and that is arguable.

that’s how I see it. This years gp is not some closed club to some riders, each and every one has qualified in some manner. Ok, occasionally someone gets through the system and gets into the GPs but he has had to work at it.

I loved the one off world final, the atmosphere was great, but also love the current GP system where the best rider over the season is world champ. Not only has the winner needed to ride each different track well, he has had to select the right engine/setup for different tracks.

That is my point exactly. When somebody is placed at a certain stage without competing, that is "seeding"; that certainly doesn't apply to the GP's - unlike the old World Final system.

The ONLY time I can recall an attempt at that was when Greg Hancock was offered a wild card after having a year off.

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On 6/16/2022 at 3:17 AM, chunky said:

The problem is that you can't get your head around the fact that it is not "seeding". Look, let's take darts. The bulk of the World Championship field is made up from the rankings. In other words, players battle it out over a number of tournaments during the year, and get points based on their performances. Fair? The GP is just the same. Riders compete not only tp be World Champion, but to QUALIFY for the following year.

When you have a series lasting several months, it os virtualli impossible - and unfair - to introduce various qualification systems on top of the main qualification system

Countless examples: tennis, golf, snooker all based on rankings. F1 is effectively 100% wildcard. 

Most team sports, participation in a league is based on performance the previous year. Cricket and rugby World cups, many teams qualify based on rankings or previous tournament performance. 

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