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2 hours ago, Speedtiger said:

You only need to look on Company house web site and the true eye watering figures are there for all to see.

The prime objective in running any business is to make a profit and I suspect there’s very few if any PL clubs or CL clubs for that matter are making money and that’s why they go out of business and the current number of clubs is at an all time low, eg top league with only six teams is a joke! As things are British speedway is unsustainable and if things don’t change it will remain unsustainable. Sadly I believe things won’t change and the terminal decline will continue. 
I take your fare point about Oxford and it’s a little bit of good news and I really hope they make it work, but time will tell. Birmingham, well good luck with that!

It maybe that you can see something I can't but only balance sheets are on company house, not profit/loss.  The only thing I can work out is that Belle Vue  liabilities are increasing by pushing £100k per season. 

Speedway is no different to other sports in that although clubs are run as businesses there is very often no expectation of making money and they are, as such, a personal hobby for a wealthy individual (or individuals). 

As an example, in 2018/19 Ipswich Town made a loss of £3m pre tax (4 championship clubs were in the black, 16 in the red, with only 1 lower than Ipswich). Their average gate was just short of 18,000. If Belle Vue get 1,200, then their loss by the same ratio should be £200k when it is probably half that.

The problem comes, then,  not when a loss is made but when that loss is unsustainable either because the owner can't afford the amount concerned or because he can but is unwilling to do so. 

What I think is true is that clubs have closed not because they are losing money, but because they are losing too much(which, to be fair, isn't much different to what you have suggested). 

I agree about Birmingham; it has a very chequered past and will take a real optimist with deep pockets to get involved. However, perhaps to prove my point that speedway will carry on there is also a new track being built at Workington with the possibility of NDL racing next season.  

 

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7 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Agreed I do wonder though if the returning clubs had any talks with the breakaway club about the potential of a small mini league to form the basis of a league 

 

If there is an alternative to the massive financial commitment of league speedway then it's a positive way forward for amateur or semi-professional to operate on an Isle of Wight style model similar to grasstrack. I'd happy to watch speedway of any form if it's affordable and well organised. We've had some fantastic days out watching grasstrack as it's so interesting such a variety and open to all ages and genders.

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3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

It maybe that you can see something I can't but only balance sheets are on company house, not profit/loss.  The only thing I can work out is that Belle Vue  liabilities are increasing by pushing £100k per season. 

Speedway is no different to other sports in that although clubs are run as businesses there is very often no expectation of making money and they are, as such, a personal hobby for a wealthy individual (or individuals). 

As an example, in 2018/19 Ipswich Town made a loss of £3m pre tax (4 championship clubs were in the black, 16 in the red, with only 1 lower than Ipswich). Their average gate was just short of 18,000. If Belle Vue get 1,200, then their loss by the same ratio should be £200k when it is probably half that.

The problem comes, then,  not when a loss is made but when that loss is unsustainable either because the owner can't afford the amount concerned or because he can but is unwilling to do so. 

What I think is true is that clubs have closed not because they are losing money, but because they are losing too much(which, to be fair, isn't much different to what you have suggested). 

I agree about Birmingham; it has a very chequered past and will take a real optimist with deep pockets to get involved. However, perhaps to prove my point that speedway will carry on there is also a new track being built at Workington with the possibility of NDL racing next season.  

 

That NDL racing that had an operating model that seemed to bring on newly opened tracks so much they "progressed" to level two, and also seemed to be a profitable proposition for those who did move "up" or stayed put at that level?

As has been said often, that level should form the basis "core" of UK Speedway with a 2nd tier running with around 10 clubs at (old) "NDL Plus/Championship Lite" standard..

"If it's NOT broken then break it"..

Another new adage from the Sport..

I remember on the Newcastle thread someone publishing the accounts for one of their recent seasons, and their outgoings were truly eye watering for (no disrespect), a track that doesnt usually attract top level riders given their Sunday race day, and are often mid to lower mid table in the 2nd Division...

Living in this "hand to mouth/will they see the season out or wont they?" existence cannot do the sport any favours, particularly as you are never focused on its development or progression, but instead just on its survival.. 

You would think that at least for one season all would come together, agree a "lower level", and agree a total payroll spend for each club and then using some of the money saved, which they currently pretty much "waste for zero return", actually deliver a joined up, collective marketing campaign which can move the whole entity forward..

They seem collectively to spend literally millions for next to nothing in return..

All very strange...

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3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Speedway is no different to other sports in that although clubs are run as businesses there is very often no expectation of making money and they are, as such, a personal hobby for a wealthy individual (or individuals). 

As an example, in 2018/19 Ipswich Town made a loss of £3m pre tax (4 championship clubs were in the black, 16 in the red, with only 1 lower than Ipswich). Their average gate was just short of 18,000. If Belle Vue get 1,200, then their loss by the same ratio should be £200k when it is probably half that.

The difference between football and speedway is that there's usually plenty of other mugs willing to do a wedge once the previous owners have tired of losing so much money, or have simply run out of it. And as clubs fall down the divisions, there's plenty of others behind them in the pyramid to replace them. 

Just because Ipswich and most other football clubs are perpetually run at a loss, that's hardly a recipe for speedway or indeed any other sport to follow. Indeed, speedway simply hasn't got that luxury as there aren't queues of wealthy backers lining up to take over tracks, and there's also really nowhere for them to fall except out of the sport completely.

The sport needs to be run in a sustainable way, not as an expensive hobby for the local businessmen who's made a few bob...

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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19 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The difference between football and speedway is that there's usually plenty of other mugs willing to do a wedge once the previous owners has tired of losing so much money. And as clubs fall down the divisions, there's plenty of others in the pyramid to replace them. 

Just because Ipswich and most other football clubs are perpetually run at a loss, that's hardly a recipe for speedway or indeed any other sport to follow. Indeed, speedway simply hasn't got that luxury as there aren't queues of wealthy backers lining up to take over tracks, and there's also really nowhere for them to fall except out of the sport completely.

The sport needs to be run in a sustainable way, not as an expensive hobby for the local businessmen who's made a few bob...

I'm not sure that's totally true, Humph. Birmingham's losses last season were awful, yet even now there is a consortium attempting to take over. Eastbourne closed for financial reasons, yet they will apparently be back in 2023. Workington - who also lost a shed load in their last few years - are planning to be ready for 2022 and there clearly wasn't a queue for Derby County.

I also think you have to consider that funding a speedway track is likely to be an awful lot less expensive than paying for a football team, so you don't need quite so much cash.

In recent years. huge amounts have been poured into places like Belle Vue and Glasgow, while my suspicion is that tracks like Scunthorpe and King's Lynn use other activities at their stadiums to subsidise speedway to a degree.    

Its very difficult to disagree that speedway should be run in a sustainable way, but the question must be asked as to whether running based solely upon income generated is a realistic possibility for most teams.

 

 

Edited by Halifaxtiger

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3 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I'm not sure that's totally true, Humph. Birmingham's losses last season were awful, yet even now there is a consortium attempting to take over. Eastbourne closed for financial reasons, yet they will apparently be back in 2023. Workington - who also lost a shed load in their last few years - are planning to be ready for 2022 and there clearly wasn't a queue for Derby County.

I also think you have to consider that funding a speedway track is likely to be an awful lot less expensive than paying for a football team, so you don't need quite so much cash.

In recent years. huge amounts have been poured into places like Belle Vue and Glasgow, while my suspicion is that tracks like Scunthorpe and King's Lynn use other activities at their stadiums to subsidise speedway to a degree.    

Its very difficult to disagree that speedway should be run in a sustainable way, but the question must be asked as to whether running based solely upon income generated is a realistic possibility for most teams.

 

 

Think Rob has openly said that without all the other stuff that goes on at Scunthorpe speedway would not be viable on its own

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Someone ,somewhere has to get speedway on normal TV.The amount of people that dont know about the speedway product is mind blowing.Also we need more people like Matt Ford,who has bust a gut to get speedway fans into the stadium,other people just expect the crowds to come in auto mode.!!!

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35 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I also think you have to consider that funding a speedway track is likely to be an awful lot less expensive than paying for a football team, so you don't need quite so much cash.

Sure, but you're also far less likely to get a really wealthy backer in the sport, which in turn means the likelihood of turning the sport around or even making stadiums fit for human habitation is pretty slim. It's one thing to lose money whilst you're still basking in winning the FA Cup or something, but whatever passes for the Speedway Star Knockout Cup these days doesn't have quite the same prestige or reflected glory.:D

It is somewhat surprising what has been invested in a couple of speedway tracks in the current climate, but the calamitous loss of teams would suggest speedway is not an attractive proposition for many. :unsure:

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4 minutes ago, speedwaysliders said:

Someone ,somewhere has to get speedway on normal TV.The amount of people that dont know about the speedway product is mind blowing.Also we need more people like Matt Ford,who has bust a gut to get speedway fans into the stadium,other people just expect the crowds to come in auto mode.!!!

Isn't Quest 'normal TV' then?

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30 minutes ago, phillwhitewasmad said:

Think Rob has openly said that without all the other stuff that goes on at Scunthorpe speedway would not be viable on its own

It is an incredible business plan for so many isnt it?

Knowing (and pro actively planning) that you will lose money on the thing you are selling as costs will be a fair old way in excess of income.. 

Therefore, you rely on subsidies from others, or your own other business interests to offset those costs..

But yet you do fundamentally exactly the same thing, year in, year out, and never actually make any tangible lasting changes or improvements to your business as "getting through" is your major measure of attainment.. 

Pumping an incredible amount of money into a sport which is followed each week track side by how many? 20,000 or so max in the whole of the nation? 

An incredible amount that achieves virtually nothing in pushing the sport, and thus their own businesses, forward..

You have to admire their dedication but at the same time, question their operating and business plan as both are a  long way away from being good enough for the purpose of running a professional team sport...

There MUST be another way surely where all work together to reduce costs and all then benefit collectively to invest in the sports future..?

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6 minutes ago, speedwaysliders said:

Someone ,somewhere has to get speedway on normal TV.The amount of people that dont know about the speedway product is mind blowing.Also we need more people like Matt Ford,who has bust a gut to get speedway fans into the stadium,other people just expect the crowds to come in auto mode.!!!

someone, somewhere has to stop paying out more that what's coming in.

we don't need to see rocket ships going around, cheaper bikes please

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35 minutes ago, mikebv said:

It is an incredible business plan for so many isnt it?

Knowing (and pro actively planning) that you will lose money on the thing you are selling as costs will be a fair old way in excess of income.. 

Therefore, you rely on subsidies from others, or your own other business interests to offset those costs..

But yet you do fundamentally exactly the same thing, year in, year out, and never actually make any tangible lasting changes or improvements to your business as "getting through" is your major measure of attainment.. 

Pumping an incredible amount of money into a sport which is followed each week track side by how many? 20,000 or so max in the whole of the nation? 

An incredible amount that achieves virtually nothing in pushing the sport, and thus their own businesses, forward..

You have to admire their dedication but at the same time, question their operating and business plan as both are a  long way away from being good enough for the purpose of running a professional team sport...

There MUST be another way surely where all work together to reduce costs and all then benefit collectively to invest in the sports future..?

The one exception to this has to be Glasgow. Yes, they have poured eye watering amounts into everything that goes on at Ashfield, but the amount of publicity for the owners’ core businesses has to provide a substantial payback. 

I can’t think of any one more professional in running speedway in UK than the Glasgow owners. 

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39 minutes ago, mikebv said:

It is an incredible business plan for so many isnt it?

Knowing (and pro actively planning) that you will lose money on the thing you are selling as costs will be a fair old way in excess of income.. 

Therefore, you rely on subsidies from others, or your own other business interests to offset those costs..

But yet you do fundamentally exactly the same thing, year in, year out, and never actually make any tangible lasting changes or improvements to your business as "getting through" is your major measure of attainment.. 

I think it's reasonable that sports organisation can be a labour of love and you shouldn't necessarily (or even at all) be in it for money. So if you're running an activity that loses money in itself, but your wider facility attracts enough other revenue to subsidise it, then that can be a reasonable business decision.

What is daft, is continuing to throw money at a loss making enterprise. It's a zero sum game, not only for you but for many of the other promoters who have to try to match the prevailing cost levels.  

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35 minutes ago, ch958 said:

someone, somewhere has to stop paying out more that what's coming in.

we don't need to see rocket ships going around, cheaper bikes please

Absolutely correct but until you get the glory hunters running clubs realise first a foremost the objective is to entertain the punters who part with hard earned cash to watch no more that 18 minutes of racing, then nothing will change.

Those in charge do not listen, acknowledge or take the slightest bit of notice from supporters who they generally think are a pain in the arse.

The sport in this country with a current modus operandi that would make most sensible business people run a mile offers no incentive for sensible investment, the lack of a major sponsor is surely an issue that no one seems to have really cracked, intermittent t v coverage focusing on six teams (that in itself gives the wrong impression to joe public who probably think ‘what just six teams race in the U.K.. why bother’) added to which riders who have over inflated value of their worth, race nights to suit most apart from the punters, teams that cannot survive solely on turnstile income, rules that make no sense for a simple sport and no independent body to deal with issues and you wonder why outsiders cannot take speedway seriously. It is a fast and furious sport that fails to excite joe public because of the dinosaurs who are using a formula that is long overdue for a radicle change and have continually failed to properly market and promote what can be a good evenings entertainment if packaged correctly.

As much as many on here offer constructive criticism, innovative ideas and continue to have a passion for speedway the only response from those in charge (who probably dare not read many comments on here) is to stick one or two fingers up at the punters and will as custodians carrying on presiding over the demise of speedway u k. I hope they are proud of the status the sport finds itself in.

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1 hour ago, speedwaysliders said:

Someone ,somewhere has to get speedway on normal TV.The amount of people that dont know about the speedway product is mind blowing.Also we need more people like Matt Ford,who has bust a gut to get speedway fans into the stadium,other people just expect the crowds to come in auto mode.!!!

I don't think we hear to many complaints from Mr Ford about not making money & it has to be said he & his Poole team have been front runners in collecting silveware. He builds a team within a budget & sticks to it. Riders come from all nations to race for him so I guess he must be doing something right in Dorset.

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