heathen52 384 Posted November 16, 2021 11 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: I must admit I am struggling to understand how you believe that three teams have not folded during 2021. I can certainly accept that there are recognisable reasons why that was the case, but it clearly happened. The same could be said of Rye House, Lakeside, Buxton, Coventry and virtually every other track lost in the past few years. Eastbourne was definitely down to mismanagement - and from what I heard worse than that - but they did not finish the season. It is very likely indeed that they will return, but that is substantially due to the exceptional nature of the ownership of the stadium. From the same source, I am told that the Dugard family do not actually charge the speedway promotion rent but merely reimbursement of match day costs - which reflects their long term and deeply committed approach to the sport. Kent does seem to be about the change of stadium owners - although Len Silver did indicate other reasons for pulling out - given that the former owner Roger Cearns was speedway co-promoter. It certainly seems to me that if there was a viable and profitable future for speedway there a prospective promoter would be found and the new landlords would welcome the continuance of racing at Central Park but it seems no-one has come forward and from comments on here ARC look to be dead against it. I'll hold my breath on Birmingham. It was a huge success on opening but has a very chequered history since, with David Mason (after suffering truly frightening losses) being just one of a number of promoters who have walked away. That's something that any potential new promoter will have to consider before taking it on. Finally, I'd point out that only as a result of a last minute intervention were Newcastle saved, Rob Grant having publicly stated that they were to close. At present, there are 17 stand alone clubs committed to running in BSPL competition in 2022. 10 years ago, there were 28. 7 hours ago, mikebv said: So, therefore, the only correct and sensible thing to so is to carry on with such a winning formula isnt it? Keep running seven man teams even though there isnt enough riders, meaning every team can share several riders with someone else in the league below and thus, very little demarcation between the top two leagues.. Thus, zero aspirational attainment to grow... Keep running fixed (restrictive) race nights simply to ensure all the riders have an opportunity to do a seven day stretch and have loads of rides... With whether your fans thinking it is the best night to race on being very much a secondary (and maybe even lower?) consideration.. And keep running two leagues with an ever dwindling number of clubs taking part, thus rendering both pretty much worthless recognition wise in winning.. Even more so when any team who wins can, and invariably will, get help from every other team in the league to attain that "success"... They seem to have unearthed a new adage.. "If it IS broken, dont fix it". If the BSPL were to do a survey to find out the average age of spectators that go to watch live Speedway they may find out the true state of British Speedway, for sure it IS broke but they year on year make no attempt to fix it, I will guarantee now that at least 1 other Team will fall by the wayside in 2022, last team standing turn the lights out please. One other fact some fail to realise is that any NEW Promoter cannot even vote or propose any new measures for 3 years, so he/she can see obvious problems within the Sport but cant even propose/vote for any changes, but he/she can continue to throw money at Speedway but cant do anything about it for 3 years, except walk away how stupid is that ?. Fixed racenights, Doubling up are not in the best interests of British Speedway, they are in fact detrimental to British Speedway but the powers that be cant see any further than the end of there noses. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speedtiger 327 Posted November 16, 2021 On 11/13/2021 at 8:08 PM, mikebv said: Adrian Smith will be another in quite a long line who have seen the sport from outside and thought "Wow! What potential".... So therefore, got involved, .. And, like others before him, would have gone into it thinking that all he had to do was highlight to the those already incumbent all the obvious inherent flaws that all can see hold the sport back in the UK... And then simply convince them that there are a great many alternative ways of moving this great sport forwards... However... Like so many others before him he has failed to take into account how insular and short term focused so many within the sport are, with many appearing to be "quite happy" with their lot as they hold 'some power'... Failing to grasp of course that they 'hold power' in a sport that hardly anyone has heard of, never mind cares about.. "Ideas People" are not wanted.... All very true. But non-speedway people coming into the sport, who incidentally haven’t put in a penny of there own money, assume that a solution to the decline of the sport and why it’s unsustainable is simple, as suggested in the BV program article. They are very naive as to how the club promotors operate who have put in there own money and in many cases a huge amount of time and effort and they think the way BSPA do things is wrong and it just needs “an independent management” to run the sport…yes simple idea that’s NOT a chance of that happening or working. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trees 2,814 Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) Who's calculated how many riders we have in the UK who would be of high enough standard to be in one big league, how many riders could each team have? 4? 5? Edited November 16, 2021 by Trees Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,263 Posted November 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, Speedtiger said: All very true. But non-speedway people coming into the sport, who incidentally haven’t put in a penny of there own money, assume that a solution to the decline of the sport and why it’s unsustainable is simple, as suggested in the BV program article. They are very naive as to how the club promotors operate who have put in there own money and in many cases a huge amount of time and effort and they think the way BSPA do things is wrong and it just needs “an independent management” to run the sport…yes simple idea that’s NOT a chance of that happening or working. You are correct.. It is quite incredible really that those outside looking in can often see so much potential in the sport if only if was "ran properly" like other team sports... Whilst those within the "speedway bubble" seem not to see anything other than the 'same old, same old' as the ONLY way forwards... (Or ultimately backwards as sadly the reality appears to often be)... So much potential (as FIM meetings ran in the UK shows).. But destined to remain unfulfilled l fear.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, heathen52 said: If the BSPL were to do a survey to find out the average age of spectators that go to watch live Speedway they may find out the true state of British Speedway, for sure it IS broke but they year on year make no attempt to fix it, I will guarantee now that at least 1 other Team will fall by the wayside in 2022, last team standing turn the lights out please. One other fact some fail to realise is that any NEW Promoter cannot even vote or propose any new measures for 3 years, so he/she can see obvious problems within the Sport but cant even propose/vote for any changes, but he/she can continue to throw money at Speedway but cant do anything about it for 3 years, except walk away how stupid is that ?. Fixed racenights, Doubling up are not in the best interests of British Speedway, they are in fact detrimental to British Speedway but the powers that be cant see any further than the end of there noses. Even being around for 3 years doesn't guarantee you a vote or even a say in relation to an issue that directly and significantly affects your club. Ask Isle of Wight and Mildenhall about that one. Edited November 16, 2021 by Halifaxtiger 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,395 Posted November 16, 2021 18 minutes ago, Trees said: Who's calculated how many riders we have in the UK who would be of high enough standard to be in one big league, how many riders could each team have? 4? 5? no 6 wd be fine but there wd be riders with no chance of beating the heat leaders like it was in the 60s and 70s when ht leaders had 9 plus averages because the opposition had riders unable to beat them seemed to work ok then Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cowboy cookie returns? 747 Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, mikebv said: You are correct.. It is quite incredible really that those outside looking in can often see so much potential in the sport if only if was "ran properly" like other team sports... Whilst those within the "speedway bubble" seem not to see anything other than the 'same old, same old' as the ONLY way forwards... (Or ultimately backwards as sadly the reality appears to often be)... So much potential (as FIM meetings ran in the UK shows).. But destined to remain unfulfilled l fear.... I've been doing a little research and revisiting old meetings thanks to you tube to try and get some sort of handle as to the state of UK speedway. My conclusion is pretty much of today's issues around the BSPA (L) bubble has existed for years. A flick though some old speedway star/mail from the era I got involved in the sport the late 80s give a pretty similar view of the problems that still exist today infighting one upmanship unable to look outside the bubble. Couple this with a recent re-read of the John Berry books all seem to lend weight to the conclusion that nothing has been down to move the sport forward in fact it's gone backwards or to rid it of the internal politics that in the end will see it collapse. So how after 35-40 does the sport still have the same issues most of the promotors from then aren't around now in yet the same old issues are still present Now viewing some old meetings from Wimbledon in 89 on you tube shows the good and the bad & ultimately what is still an issue today. Firstly the presenter Dave Lanning one of the best and his introductions, in heat commentary while also winding up the opposition all first class and would work today. However even in 89 the marching music and the records played between heats were massively outdated. Is there a solution or some form of saviour? Edited November 16, 2021 by cowboy cookie returns? Wrong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trees 2,814 Posted November 16, 2021 Give commentary a go, would help with atmosphere imo .... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pieman72 588 Posted November 16, 2021 I think a completely new set up is the best way and leave the BSPL to own their mess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillwhitewasmad 1,487 Posted November 16, 2021 29 minutes ago, Pieman72 said: I think a completely new set up is the best way and leave the BSPL to own their mess. Can't see that happening. If it's that bad why are both returning clubs looking at running under the Bspl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speedtiger 327 Posted November 16, 2021 1 hour ago, mikebv said: You are correct.. It is quite incredible really that those outside looking in can often see so much potential in the sport if only if was "ran properly" like other team sports... Whilst those within the "speedway bubble" seem not to see anything other than the 'same old, same old' as the ONLY way forwards... (Or ultimately backwards as sadly the reality appears to often be)... So much potential (as FIM meetings ran in the UK shows).. But destined to remain unfulfilled l fear.... Agreed but my main point is, contrary to outsiders looking in or getting in to the sport, there’s no simple silver bullet that will fix speedway. If there was even the clueless clowns like Chapman and Godfrey would find it!!! The problems effecting the terminal decline of British speedway are far more complex and to suggest that it’s a simple solution, as AS suggests in the BV program article just highlights the palpable nonsense that’s put out. The bv management are running a club that’s loosing hundreds of thousands of pounds per season so if it was that simple surely they would easily fix that financial mess! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted November 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Speedtiger said: Agreed but my main point is, contrary to outsiders looking in or getting in to the sport, there’s no simple silver bullet that will fix speedway. If there was even the clueless clowns like Chapman and Godfrey would find it!!! The problems effecting the terminal decline of British speedway are far more complex and to suggest that it’s a simple solution, as AS suggests in the BV program article just highlights the palpable nonsense that’s put out. The bv management are running a club that’s loosing hundreds of thousands of pounds per season so if it was that simple surely they would easily fix that financial mess! Dead right I am a big fan of Adrian Smith but while what he is saying would definitely be a step in the right direction it would be most optimistic to believe it would be a solution to speedway's problems. I should say I don't believe speedway is in terminal decline - the fact that Oxford are re-opening this season after a considerable absence and that there are those trying to keep Birmingham open suggests that individuals will always appear to keep it going. Sick ward, definitely, but not terminal. I also suspect that while Belle Vue are losing money it is not on the scale you suggest. Even the pockets of Messrs Rice and Southwell aren't deep enough to cope with those sort of losses even if they were prepared to accept them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted November 17, 2021 8 hours ago, phillwhitewasmad said: Can't see that happening. If it's that bad why are both returning clubs looking at running under the Bspl Because in reality there is no credible alternative for a league structure. Clubs have very little choice but to stay put, as bad as it maybe. However, one club has broken away and done so very successfully, something that will have been noted by the others. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillwhitewasmad 1,487 Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: Because in reality there is no credible alternative for a league structure. Clubs have very little choice but to stay put, as bad as it maybe. However, one club has broken away and done so very successfully, something that will have been noted by the others. Agreed I do wonder though if the returning clubs had any talks with the breakaway club about the potential of a small mini league to form the basis of a league Edited November 17, 2021 by phillwhitewasmad 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speedtiger 327 Posted November 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: Dead right I am a big fan of Adrian Smith but while what he is saying would definitely be a step in the right direction it would be most optimistic to believe it would be a solution to speedway's problems. I should say I don't believe speedway is in terminal decline - the fact that Oxford are re-opening this season after a considerable absence and that there are those trying to keep Birmingham open suggests that individuals will always appear to keep it going. Sick ward, definitely, but not terminal. I also suspect that while Belle Vue are losing money it is not on the scale you suggest. Even the pockets of Messrs Rice and Southwell aren't deep enough to cope with those sort of losses even if they were prepared to accept them. You only need to look on Company house web site and the true eye watering figures are there for all to see. The prime objective in running any business is to make a profit and I suspect there’s very few if any PL clubs or CL clubs for that matter are making money and that’s why they go out of business and the current number of clubs is at an all time low, eg top league with only six teams is a joke! As things are British speedway is unsustainable and if things don’t change it will remain unsustainable. Sadly I believe things won’t change and the terminal decline will continue. I take your fare point about Oxford and it’s a little bit of good news and I really hope they make it work, but time will tell. Birmingham, well good luck with that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites