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norbold

Who is number six?

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On 11/27/2021 at 12:13 PM, norbold said:

Over the years we have had a number of threads discussing the "Greatest Ever". Looking back over these, it seems to be that, if we take riders within living memory that many have actually seen or have heard about first hand from those that have seen them, the top five are fairly well agreed as (in roughly chronological order) Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Hans Nielsen and Tony Rickardsson.

Two questions.

1. Would anyone disagree with those five?

2. Who is number six?

1. No, they all deserve to be there. 

2. Tricky question. I think I'd go for Bruce Penhall, although IMO the other outstanding candidates (in chronological order) are Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ole Olsen, Anders Michanek, Erik Gundersen, Greg Hancock and Jason Crump.  As for Tai Woffinden and Bartosz Zmarzlik, I'll decide where they fit once they retire.

Edited by lucifer sam
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It really is almost impossible to compare, lets take just 2 riders who i had the pleasure of watching during there entire career both cut short for varying reasons; Penhall and Gunderson by whatever yardstick you may use they were both great riders. Firstly Penhall in my humble opinion a better all round racer than Gundersen, however if Eric was in front in any race I rarely if ever saw anyone overtake him, take the last Wembley final yes Bruce won the Final but Eric took the Track record and didnt finish on the rostrum because if memory serves me right in possibly his easiest race he forgot to turn his fuel on and failed to score a point when just an extra point would have put him on 12 equal with Olsen and Knudsen, however thats all ifs buts and maybe`s, back to Bruce as Eric has recently said he and the Americans gave us a new style of riding away from the old upright sitting style, whereby they threw the bike around and moved around on the bikes during races, Bruce could perform on all Tracks and in all conditions be it from the front or back. Eric liked the big fast Tracks and generally would gate and go however he was known on occasion to grab a handful of throttle and take a big blast around the outside leaving the oposition in his wake. Who was the best? probably Bruce but in a match race I really couldnt say who would win.

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1 hour ago, False dawn said:

This is a great discussion. Riders individual achievements, British Finals, World Championships and so on, are known by many and have been written about endlessly. But team players are really only lauded by their team's supporters. To take up your point with regard to Jason Crump, from the outside he fell into the "I've scored a maximum but the team lost" category. I don't think I've seen a rider consistently finish so far ahead of the field. But in this context, Greg was a quality individual performer but for Bees fans we remember the H&H days with great fondness. 

Yes, you are right. Not only is the discussion somewhat subjective but our memories play tricks on us .We see a certain rider pull off a particular move once or twice and when we look back years later we have somehow convinced ourselves that he was doing it every week.

Another point is that Speedway is primarily a team sport but we always judge these things ontbe basis of individual performances. For example Fundins record of consistency in the World Final undoubtedly puts him among the greatest of all time, yet there seems to be any number of riders who will say he needn’t care who he knocked off , even his own team mates, as long as he won the race. I suppose the majority of No 1’s were like that to some degree.

Then coming back to your point about Greg , his style made it look like he was never really trying, even if he was winning a Grand Prix. On the other hand Crumpie always had that look of aggression and malevolence about his riding that made one sit up and take notice. 

Perhaps I can take the discussion a step further and ask who were the best all round team men at league level.It would have to be a powerful heat leader , but one who could team ride and inspire his team by his mere presence in the pits.That makes him more difficult to pick. Over to you guys.......

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2 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

1. No, they all deserve to be there. 

2. Tricky question. I think I'd go for Bruce Penhall, although IMO the other outstanding candidates (in chronological order) are Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jack Young, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ole Olsen, Erik Gundersen, Greg Hancock and Jason Crump.  As for Tai Woffinden and Bartosz Zmarzlik, I'll decide where they fit once they retire.

As far as Bluey Wilkinson and Vic Duggan go I was really looking at riders of recent memory. Otherwise, surely Tom Farndon would be no.1!

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8 hours ago, iris123 said:

I sort of agree with this to some extent

Always difficult to judge how things would have panned out if Bruce hadn't decided to retire. Just like if Ronnie Moore hadn't had that break from the sport at his peak. I would in both cases like to think they could have taken at least another title. Possibly more so even in Penhall's case. But Ronnie had proved he could beat the best of his rivals, whereas you could say a new generation came up when Penhall left the sport. But would they have been such a success if he had stuck around ?

The problem is that everyone is convinced that they KNOW what would have happened. What we have to do is judge things by what happened, and not what might have happened. Take Tommy Jansson. Everyone says that he would have been a world champion, but he would still have been facing Collins, Lee, Mauger, Olsen etc, and then Penhall, Gundersen, and Nielsen. Nobody can say for certain...

Edited by chunky
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18 minutes ago, norbold said:

As far as Bluey Wilkinson and Vic Duggan go I was really looking at riders of recent memory. Otherwise, surely Tom Farndon would be no.1!

Well, you'd gone as far back as a rider who rode in UK Speedway in 1952 (Briggo), so I just went back a tiny bit earlier ;)  But, yeah, going pre-war does open up a different kettle of fish, so maybe we should restrict it to post-war.  I rescind Bluey Wilkinson and add Anders Michanek :wink: 

   

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1 minute ago, chunky said:

The problem is that everyone is convinced that they KNOW what would have happened. What we have to do is judge things by what happended, and not what might have happened. Take Tommy Jansson. Everyone says that he would have been a world champion, but he would still have been facing Collins, Lee, Mauger, Olsen etc, and then Penhall, Gundersen, and Nielsen. Nobody can say for certain...

Not everyone chunky, because I absolutely agree with that. It has always seemed to be some sort of heresy to doubt that Tommy Jansson would have been world champion, but for the reasons you say, I have always had severe doubts that he would have been.

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1 hour ago, E I Addio said:

Yes, you are right. Not only is the discussion somewhat subjective but our memories play tricks on us .We see a certain rider pull off a particular move once or twice and when we look back years later we have somehow convinced ourselves that he was doing it every week.

Another point is that Speedway is primarily a team sport but we always judge these things ontbe basis of individual performances. For example Fundins record of consistency in the World Final undoubtedly puts him among the greatest of all time, yet there seems to be any number of riders who will say he needn’t care who he knocked off , even his own team mates, as long as he won the race. I suppose the majority of No 1’s were like that to some degree.

Then coming back to your point about Greg , his style made it look like he was never really trying, even if he was winning a Grand Prix. On the other hand Crumpie always had that look of aggression and malevolence about his riding that made one sit up and take notice. 

Perhaps I can take the discussion a step further and ask who were the best all round team men at league level.It would have to be a powerful heat leader , but one who could team ride and inspire his team by his mere presence in the pits.That makes him more difficult to pick. Over to you guys.......

Surely it's easier to start a new thread if you want to change the matter under discussion, rather than hijack a thread. 

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4 hours ago, chunky said:

The problem is that everyone is convinced that they KNOW what would have happened. What we have to do is judge things by what happened, and not what might have happened. Take Tommy Jansson. Everyone says that he would have been a world champion, but he would still have been facing Collins, Lee, Mauger, Olsen etc, and then Penhall, Gundersen, and Nielsen. Nobody can say for certain...

You quote me stating it is difficult to KNOW, then say the trouble is everyoone is convinced they KNOW :blink:

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14 minutes ago, iris123 said:

You quote me stating it is difficult to KNOW, then say the trouble is everyoone is convinced they KNOW :blink:

I was agreeing with you, but okay, NEARLY everyone! We see it on here all the time, "if, if, if..."

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4 hours ago, chunky said:

I was agreeing with you, but okay, NEARLY everyone! We see it on here all the time, "if, if, if..."

Yes I think on the Jansson question it is Sid who wants a definitive answer and won’t accept one that disagrees with his

My thought is and I think I have posted it at least once is look at Leigh Adams. Such a consistently great rider. You would think the GP system was perfect for him, but he never won the title even though you just had to be very consistent without even winning GP’s

Even someone as great as Gollob only won one title and that was when most people had thought he had missed his chance(s)

And Brian Crutcher is maybe the epitome of someone who showed a hell of a lot of promise but couldn’t build on that. Tommy Miller to a lesser extent

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What I am trying to get at, is that certainly in the first two, if their career had been cut short you could make a fairly convincing argument that Adams would definitely be a world champion and that Gollob would have been a multiple world champ even the best rider the world had ever seen

Possibly also with Crutcher that he would have won a title. I know once when I mentioned him here Phil Rising said Briggo rated Crutcher one of the best he had seen

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Sadly I never got to see Brian Crutcher ride-from what I have read ,his nerves before meetings could let him down. Apparently he would get so nervous before big meetings that he would be sick to his stomach. As you know he retired at a very young age from speedway.

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9 hours ago, BOBBATH said:

Sadly I never got to see Brian Crutcher ride-from what I have read ,his nerves before meetings could let him down. Apparently he would get so nervous before big meetings that he would be sick to his stomach. As you know he retired at a very young age from speedway.

Yes, he retired the week I went to my first meeting. I've always felt responsible........

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