iris123 20,939 Posted December 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, BL65 said: Andersson and Morton - a few bits of information World Championship 1980 Final: Andersson 11 (4th), Morton 7 (7th=) Andersson 13 (1st Swedish Final) Morton 7 (8th=) British Final, 11 (4th=) Commonwealth Final, 12 (1st Intercontinental Final) 1981 Final: Andersson 9 (6th), Morton 5 (10th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 11 (5th) Nordic Final, 8 (7th=) Intercontinental Final Morton 10 (5th) British Final, 11 (2nd) Overseas Final, 8 (7th=) Intercontinental Final 1982 Andersson 8 (6th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 10 (6th) Nordic Final, 7 (8th=) Intercontinental Final Morton 10 (5th) British Final, 5 (15th ) Overseas Final 1983 Morton 7 (10th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 11 (4th=) Nordic Final, Andersson 3 (13th) Intercontinental Final Morton 12 (1st) British Final, 9 (6th=) Overseas Final, Andersson 3 (13th), Morton 7 (9th=) Intercontinental Final 1984 Andersson 6 (10th) Andersson 1st Swedish Final (over three rounds), 11 (4th) Nordic Final, 7 (10th=) Intercontinental Final Morton 5 (12th) British Final 1985 Andersson 7 (9th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final ,12 (2nd) Nordic Final, 11 (4th) Intercontinental Final Morton 9 (5th=) British Final, 11 (3rd) Commonwealth Final, 6 (11th) Overseas Final, 0 (res) Continental Final 1986 Andersson dnr (res), Morton 8 (8th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 10 (4th=) Nordic Final, 6 (12th) in Intercontinental Final Morton 10 (5th) British Final, 10 (4th=) Overseas Final, 7 (8th=) Continental Final 1987 Morton 5 (12th) Andersson 43 (1st) Swedish Final (over three rounds), 8 (9th) Nordic Final, Morton 8 (8th=) British Final, 10 (4th=) Commonwealth Final, 7 (10th) Overseas Final, 7 (11th) Intercontinental Final 1988 Morton 6 (10th) Andersson qual. ns Swedish Final, Morton 11 (3rd) British Final, 9 (5th=) Commonwealth Final, 8 (7th=) Intercontinental Final 1989 Andersson 34 (3rd) Swedish Final (over three rounds), Nordic Final dnr World Team Cup Finals 1980 Morton 11 1981 Morton 11 1983 Morton 5 1984 Morton 5 1985 Andersson 5 1986 Morton 20 (3 rounds), Andersson 28 (3 rounds) 1988 Morton 4 World Pairs 1980 Andersson 9 (Final), 16 (SF) 1981 Morton 10 (Final), Anderson 10, Morton 12 (SF) 1982 Andersson 13 (SF) 1983 Andersson 11 (Final)| 1984 Morton 14 (Final), Andersson 15, Morton 14 (SF) 1985 Andersson 10 (Final) 14 (SF) 1986 Andersson 17 (Final), 24 (SF) BLRC 1980 Andersson 10 (4th=) 1981 Andersson 5 (12th=), Morton 13 (2nd) 1982 Andersson 8 (7th), Morton 6 (10th=) 1983 Andersson 7 (11th=), Morton 5 (12th) 1984 Andersson 6 (9th=), Morton 13 (1st) 1985 Andersson 5 (10th=), Morton 12 (3rd) 1986 Andersson 11 (4th=), Morton 11 (4th=) 1987 Andersson 10 (5th), Morton 13 (2nd) 1988 Andersson 5 (10th=), Morton 12 (4th=) Swedish Championship - Andersson 1980 13 (1st) 1981 15 (1st) 1982 12 (3rd) 1983 14 (2nd) 1984 14 (1st) 1985 11 (3rd) 1986 13 (2nd) 1987 13 (2nd) 1988 (dnr) 1989 7 (9th) Swedish League Average (5 rides) - Andersson 1980 14.75 (1st - 2nd tier) 1981 14.25 (1st) - top division 1982 14.90 (1st 2nd tier) 1983 14.06 (1st) - top division 1984 15.00 (1st) 1985 14.83 (1st) 1986 14.55 (1st) 1987 13.62 (1st) 1988 13.49 (1st) 1989 12.85 (3rd) British League Averages 1980 Andersson 10.08, Morton 10.09 1981 Andersson 10.02, Morton 9.75 1982 Andersson 9.96, Morton 10.18 1983 Andersson 9.47, Morton 10.30 1984 Andersson 10.05, Morton 10.31 1985 Andersson 9.43, Morton 9.77 1986 Andersson 9.34, Morton 9.34 1987 Andersson 8.99, Morton 8.92 1988 Andersson 8.93, Morton 9.01 1989 Morton 6.75 One of the problems i see there, it sort of sticks out a mile for me, is you have used Swedish and British Final/Championships to judge them. And i would think the Swedish Championship during that decade was far weaker than the British final. Same, as i am not sure what relevance Swedish league averages would have. BL averages more so, and there for instance Morton is generally better. BLRC is at Mortons home track, so he has the advantage there But tbh it isn't something i am too worried about. All opinions.Even averages can show a false impression if a rider has been injured and came back or moved track and took time to get used to the new home ..... Edited December 3, 2021 by iris123 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BOBBATH 466 Posted December 3, 2021 Some excellent stats here, I enjoyed reading them-once again I have to defer to BL65-I have to agree that Gote Nordin was better in the sixties than Ken McKinlay!! I am trying to think of some other head to heads of the sixties. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,101 Posted December 4, 2021 On 12/2/2021 at 11:09 PM, BOBBATH said: I reckon McKinlay was better than Nordin in the sixties! Even though Hurri-Ken was my team's captain, I really can't agree with that. Towards the end of the period that the "Big Five" were given a 20 yard handicap, it was strongly argued that Nordin had become so good that he too should be put on 20 yards as well. I never heard anyone argue that Ken Mckinlay should have been. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chunky 6,087 Posted December 4, 2021 1 hour ago, norbold said: Even though Hurri-Ken was my team's captain, I really can't agree with that. Towards the end of the period that the "Big Five" were given a 20 yard handicap, it was strongly argued that Nordin had become so good that he too should be put on 20 yards as well. I never heard anyone argue that Ken Mckinlay should have been. For some reason, Gote was often overlooked when the "top" riders were being discussed. When you look at his record, it was pretty damn impressive! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatface 2,549 Posted December 4, 2021 20 hours ago, BL65 said: Andersson and Morton - a few bits of information World Championship 1980 Final: Andersson 11 (4th), Morton 7 (7th=) Andersson 13 (1st Swedish Final) Morton 7 (8th=) British Final, 11 (4th=) Commonwealth Final, 12 (1st Intercontinental Final) 1981 Final: Andersson 9 (6th), Morton 5 (10th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 11 (5th) Nordic Final, 8 (7th=) Intercontinental Final Morton 10 (5th) British Final, 11 (2nd) Overseas Final, 8 (7th=) Intercontinental Final 1982 Andersson 8 (6th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 10 (6th) Nordic Final, 7 (8th=) Intercontinental Final Morton 10 (5th) British Final, 5 (15th ) Overseas Final 1983 Morton 7 (10th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 11 (4th=) Nordic Final, Andersson 3 (13th) Intercontinental Final Morton 12 (1st) British Final, 9 (6th=) Overseas Final, Andersson 3 (13th), Morton 7 (9th=) Intercontinental Final 1984 Andersson 6 (10th) Andersson 1st Swedish Final (over three rounds), 11 (4th) Nordic Final, 7 (10th=) Intercontinental Final Morton 5 (12th) British Final 1985 Andersson 7 (9th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final ,12 (2nd) Nordic Final, 11 (4th) Intercontinental Final Morton 9 (5th=) British Final, 11 (3rd) Commonwealth Final, 6 (11th) Overseas Final, 0 (res) Continental Final 1986 Andersson dnr (res), Morton 8 (8th=) Andersson seeded to Nordic Final, 10 (4th=) Nordic Final, 6 (12th) in Intercontinental Final Morton 10 (5th) British Final, 10 (4th=) Overseas Final, 7 (8th=) Continental Final 1987 Morton 5 (12th) Andersson 43 (1st) Swedish Final (over three rounds), 8 (9th) Nordic Final, Morton 8 (8th=) British Final, 10 (4th=) Commonwealth Final, 7 (10th) Overseas Final, 7 (11th) Intercontinental Final 1988 Morton 6 (10th) Andersson qual. ns Swedish Final, Morton 11 (3rd) British Final, 9 (5th=) Commonwealth Final, 8 (7th=) Intercontinental Final 1989 Andersson 34 (3rd) Swedish Final (over three rounds), Nordic Final dnr World Team Cup Finals 1980 Morton 11 1981 Morton 11 1983 Morton 5 1984 Morton 5 1985 Andersson 5 1986 Morton 20 (3 rounds), Andersson 28 (3 rounds) 1988 Morton 4 World Pairs 1980 Andersson 9 (Final), 16 (SF) 1981 Morton 10 (Final), Anderson 10, Morton 12 (SF) 1982 Andersson 13 (SF) 1983 Andersson 11 (Final)| 1984 Morton 14 (Final), Andersson 15, Morton 14 (SF) 1985 Andersson 10 (Final) 14 (SF) 1986 Andersson 17 (Final), 24 (SF) BLRC 1980 Andersson 10 (4th=) 1981 Andersson 5 (12th=), Morton 13 (2nd) 1982 Andersson 8 (7th), Morton 6 (10th=) 1983 Andersson 7 (11th=), Morton 5 (12th) 1984 Andersson 6 (9th=), Morton 13 (1st) 1985 Andersson 5 (10th=), Morton 12 (3rd) 1986 Andersson 11 (4th=), Morton 11 (4th=) 1987 Andersson 10 (5th), Morton 13 (2nd) 1988 Andersson 5 (10th=), Morton 12 (4th=) Swedish Championship - Andersson 1980 13 (1st) 1981 15 (1st) 1982 12 (3rd) 1983 14 (2nd) 1984 14 (1st) 1985 11 (3rd) 1986 13 (2nd) 1987 13 (2nd) 1988 (dnr) 1989 7 (9th) Swedish League Average (5 rides) - Andersson 1980 14.75 (1st - 2nd tier) 1981 14.25 (1st) - top division 1982 14.90 (1st 2nd tier) 1983 14.06 (1st) - top division 1984 15.00 (1st) 1985 14.83 (1st) 1986 14.55 (1st) 1987 13.62 (1st) 1988 13.49 (1st) 1989 12.85 (3rd) British League Averages 1980 Andersson 10.08, Morton 10.09 1981 Andersson 10.02, Morton 9.75 1982 Andersson 9.96, Morton 10.18 1983 Andersson 9.47, Morton 10.30 1984 Andersson 10.05, Morton 10.31 1985 Andersson 9.43, Morton 9.77 1986 Andersson 9.34, Morton 9.34 1987 Andersson 8.99, Morton 8.92 1988 Andersson 8.93, Morton 9.01 1989 Morton 6.75 Cheers! It's good work...but I'm still not clear on the criteria? Are British Finals and Swedish Finals given equal "ranking points"? Are Swedish League and British League given equal ranking points? Even to my admittedly biased eyes, this still looks like Mort had a notably better record in the 80s? Also how is Phil Crump no8 in the 80s with just one World Final? Also, if a rider isn't competing at the top level anymore, can other riders catch them up in the latter part of the decade? On the latter for example, I would say at their absolute best Carter and Lee were a better rider than Morton. But over the course of the decade, there are years were he was better than them and other years (for differing reasons) where they were out of the picture with Mort was still at world class level. It's all good knockabout stuff of course. But it's also quite arbitrary. We humans like to think of things in decades, be in sport, music, culture...but it can skew the picture. Again, sticking with Mike Lee and add PC in there too...if you were looking at the 10 years from 1975-84, they would both - I suspect - rank higher. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auntie doris 2,339 Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) Good to see Greg in top 5 for 3 decades running. Edited December 6, 2021 by auntie doris Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruiser 120 Posted December 6, 2021 No way should Jan Anderson be in the top 10 in the 80’s……Kenny Carter was excellent but not better than Michael Lee for me but it’s all about opinions I suppose 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nickinho 428 Posted December 7, 2021 17 hours ago, Bruiser said: No way should Jan Anderson be in the top 10 in the 80’s……Kenny Carter was excellent but not better than Michael Lee for me but it’s all about opinions I suppose I agree. Michael Lee in his prime was the most successful of the two but Kenny was the more natural rider imo. It was great watching them both though and i hope that British speedway continues to produce many more like them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 8, 2021 No way, by any metric, was Phil Crump top 10 of the 1980s – the only seasons he would have been in the top 10 in the world were 81 and 84, so not even close to the top ten for the decade. Disagree also with Andersson, Wigg and probably Sanders. For me it’s Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen as a clear top three; then Lee, Carter, S Moran; then four from Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko, Morton and Jessup (and maybe Sanders). Jessup is an odd one in that he was the best rider in the world in 1980, a top ten rider in 1981 (where but for ef he likely would have landed a second consecutive silver medal) – but not world class after that. Morton is the opposite, consistent throughout the decade. If I refer back to season by season rankings I did a few years back, then the top ten riders based on their best five seasons across the decade were (and noting Penhall rode only in three seasons): Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen, Carter, S Moran, Lee, Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko. That list would have Morton (11th), Andersson (13th), Sanders (14th), Crump (17th), Wigg (19th). If you were to base the list on top three seasons (i.e. rewarding “peak performance”) the only change to the riders in the top ten is Jessup in for Ermolenko. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/7/2021 at 10:57 PM, Nickinho said: I agree. Michael Lee in his prime was the most successful of the two but Kenny was the more natural rider imo. Never was Kenny a more natural rider than Mike Lee. Mike Lee was, along with Darcy Ward, the best natural talent of the last 50 years imo. Don't get me wrong, Kenny was the best visting rider I saw around Hyde Rd, and there are few who would compare for speed or determination, but there are plenty of riders I'd argue had more natural talent than him - Kelly Moran, PC, Emil, etc. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, BL65 said: 1970s: 1. Ivan Mauger, 2. Ole Olsen, 3. Anders Michanek 4. Peter Collins 5. Phil Crump 6. Barry Briggs 7. Ray Wilson 8. Martin Ashby 9. Malcolm Simmons 10. John Louis I'd definitely have PC ahead of Michanek in 3rd. Mike Lee - arguably the best rider in the world in '79- needs to be in there, certainly ahead of Louis. And can't see a good argument for Briggo being on the list. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, BL65 said: 2010s: 1. Greg Hancock 2. Tai Woffinden 3. Bartosz Zmarzlik 4. Tomasz Gollob 5. Nicki Pedersen 6. Emil Sayfutdinov 7. Jason Doyle 8. Jaroslaw Hampel 9. Chris Holder 10. Fredrik Lingdgren Not much to disagree on the list, though I'd have Ward,Jonsson or Puk ahead of Freddie, but I'd definitely change the order around. I'd suggest: 1 Woffy 2. Hancock 3. Zmarzlik 4. Doyle 5. Hampel 6. Pedersen 7. Gollob 8. Sayfutdinov 9. Holder 10. Ward Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 8, 2021 On 12/4/2021 at 8:50 PM, falcace said: Cheers! It's good work...but I'm still not clear on the criteria? Are British Finals and Swedish Finals given equal "ranking points"? Are Swedish League and British League given equal ranking points? Even to my admittedly biased eyes, this still looks like Mort had a notably better record in the 80s? Also how is Phil Crump no8 in the 80s with just one World Final? the only metric Andersson out performs Mort is performance in world finals. Outside that, Mort won BLRC, inter-continental, world Pairs and WTC titles and had a better BL record. And there is no metric at all which would place Phil Crump in the top ten riders of the 80s, unless we limit to league performances at Blunsdon Rd, or Overseas finals held at Hyde Rd in years ending with an even number... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted December 8, 2021 No Jan O Pedersen during the 1980s or 1990s? World Champion in 1991, World No 2 in 1986 and World 3 in 1988. Rode in the World Pairs Final twice... and won it twice! Rode in the World Team Cup Final four times... and won it four times! Throw in a BLRC (1988) and various honours with Cradley Heath and surely he should be in there for both decades. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Split 177 Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) Much debate about later decades but not much discussion about what went before. I don't think there's any argument about the top 8 for the 60's although Sjosten and Harrfeldt could possibly be included at 9 and 10. I see that in the 70's and 80's lists, world champions Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Müller are conspicuous by their absence. Edited December 8, 2021 by Split Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
