ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted April 12, 2022 28 minutes ago, mikebv said: I was talking about putting them on standby for EVERY meeting... Not just Newcastle's.... Might help if they didn't have they're own teams to ride for tho!,,, could maybe put them on a furlough type job thing? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted April 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, ruffdiamond said: Might help if they didn't have they're own teams to ride for tho!,,, could maybe put them on a furlough type job thing? I am sure UK Speedway could find a way.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, mikebv said: I am sure UK Speedway could find a way.... Aye, just get them to sit in hoos with tha feet up, pay them most of tha pay. Then just get them to do some guest appearances now and then. They can just pretend to be footballers. Edited April 12, 2022 by ruffdiamond Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted April 12, 2022 8 hours ago, IronScorpion said: If teams are made up to 42 points & one team has 3 x 9pt riders then it also has 4 x 4pt riders. Another team has no "big hitters" but 7 x 6pt riders. It is then up to the team of 6pt riders to beat their opposing lower riders keeping the score tight. If a teams 4pt riders "step up" & the other teams 6pt riders struggle then you end up with the 60-30 score line but on paper, both teams were equal before the meeting. They're not though. Averages are based on 4 rides. If your two best riders get to have 5 rides then they score more actual points than they average. And matches are won on actual points. As I posted before if you've got 3 riders who always beat the opposition that's a guaranteed 44 points. without the other 4 riders beating the opposition. By definition the 6 point riders are less consistent and invariably drop points to the lower averaged rider opposition. It used to all be about having riders who would improve on their starting average the most. Having 3 nine pointers makes that really difficult on the basis you've got to be a bit special to average 10. Now that there's a dearth of 9 pointers it doesn't matter that much as if your 9 pointers maintain their averages you'll be right up there. The format is fine if there are enough top riders to go around but there isn't at present and there's not even enough 6 pointers around to go for a strength in depth line up. Hence a number of teams being under the points limit. So teams aren't even starting level on combined average points anyway. The point which I think we can all agree on is that more competitive teams increase the chances of an improved product which can only be a good thing. Part of the answer to achieve that is to understand the limitations of averages and the heat format and adjust the rules to level the playing field. A bi-product is you'd potentially reduce the demands of the top riders knowing team places are limited which can only help. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, enotian said: They're not though. Averages are based on 4 rides. If your two best riders get to have 5 rides then they score more actual points than they average. And matches are won on actual points. As I posted before if you've got 3 riders who always beat the opposition that's a guaranteed 44 points. without the other 4 riders beating the opposition. By definition the 6 point riders are less consistent and invariably drop points to the lower averaged rider opposition. It used to all be about having riders who would improve on their starting average the most. Having 3 nine pointers makes that really difficult on the basis you've got to be a bit special to average 10. Now that there's a dearth of 9 pointers it doesn't matter that much as if your 9 pointers maintain their averages you'll be right up there. The format is fine if there are enough top riders to go around but there isn't at present and there's not even enough 6 pointers around to go for a strength in depth line up. Hence a number of teams being under the points limit. So teams aren't even starting level on combined average points anyway. The point which I think we can all agree on is that more competitive teams increase the chances of an improved product which can only be a good thing. Part of the answer to achieve that is to understand the limitations of averages and the heat format and adjust the rules to level the playing field. A bi-product is you'd potentially reduce the demands of the top riders knowing team places are limited which can only help. All spot on 100%... The issue to prevent this though is that UK Speedway is now designed, as its key priority, to provide circa 30 to 35 riders with enough rides to make them a full time living... Which also means that promoters can then afford them as they dont pay all the riders wages but share the cost with the riders other team.. Hence we keep a guest system, regardless of the wider damage it does, as it is a nice little earner to top up the salaries, and an easy fix for the promoters to put a team out on the track.. Less riders of a certain level should, common sense would dictate, mean less riders per team, or less teams in a league... But it wont happen, as the current situation is now pretty much custom and practice... Riders wont ride for just one team given the money drop, and promoters of 2nd Div clubs wont want to only use riders of a "lesser standard" again, given they can use Div One riders now whilst delivering a second level product.. Edited April 13, 2022 by mikebv 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish McRaker 601 Posted April 13, 2022 18 hours ago, ruffdiamond said: Oh aye, gotta be the way forward,,, make more crazy rules for a place that already has enough of them! But suppose it's no different from everything else, just hope the normal, everyday run if the mill guy trying to sort a team out can fathom it all in? There'd have to be a cap put on the number of times a rider could guest for a team under the arrangement, and they could even use r/r on occasions if it suited them. I think also the facility should probably be limited to clubs which are in their first season in a league (but not the likes of Poole who drop down a league), and to clubs which have a genuinely new and approved promotion company and have stayed in the same league, it would reduce the pressure on those clubs for their first season, which is always crucial and can be difficult to recruit a team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted April 13, 2022 58 minutes ago, Hamish McRaker said: There'd have to be a cap put on the number of times a rider could guest for a team under the arrangement, and they could even use r/r on occasions if it suited them. I think also the facility should probably be limited to clubs which are in their first season in a league (but not the likes of Poole who drop down a league), and to clubs which have a genuinely new and approved promotion company and have stayed in the same league, it would reduce the pressure on those clubs for their first season, which is always crucial and can be difficult to recruit a team. What happened to it being an easy solution,,, see what happens when you start to think? 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronScorpion 1,407 Posted April 13, 2022 14 hours ago, enotian said: They're not though. Averages are based on 4 rides. If your two best riders get to have 5 rides then they score more actual points than they average. And matches are won on actual points. As I posted before if you've got 3 riders who always beat the opposition that's a guaranteed 44 points. without the other 4 riders beating the opposition. By definition the 6 point riders are less consistent and invariably drop points to the lower averaged rider opposition. It used to all be about having riders who would improve on their starting average the most. Having 3 nine pointers makes that really difficult on the basis you've got to be a bit special to average 10. Now that there's a dearth of 9 pointers it doesn't matter that much as if your 9 pointers maintain their averages you'll be right up there. The format is fine if there are enough top riders to go around but there isn't at present and there's not even enough 6 pointers around to go for a strength in depth line up. Hence a number of teams being under the points limit. So teams aren't even starting level on combined average points anyway. The point which I think we can all agree on is that more competitive teams increase the chances of an improved product which can only be a good thing. Part of the answer to achieve that is to understand the limitations of averages and the heat format and adjust the rules to level the playing field. A bi-product is you'd potentially reduce the demands of the top riders knowing team places are limited which can only help. 8 hours ago, mikebv said: All spot on 100%... The issue to prevent this though is that UK Speedway is now designed, as its key priority, to provide circa 30 to 35 riders with enough rides to make them a full time living... Which also means that promoters can then afford them as they dont pay all the riders wages but share the cost with the riders other team.. Hence we keep a guest system, regardless of the wider damage it does, as it is a nice little earner to top up the salaries, and an easy fix for the promoters to put a team out on the track.. Less riders of a certain level should, common sense would dictate, mean less riders per team, or less teams in a league... But it wont happen, as the current situation is now pretty much custom and practice... Riders wont ride for just one team given the money drop, and promoters of 2nd Div clubs wont want to only use riders of a "lesser standard" again, given they can use Div One riders now whilst delivering a second level product.. But it is not. Your heat leaders will score 40 points. A no1 scores 15, a no 3 scores 12 & a no5 scores 13 as he has ridden with the no1 in heats 13 & 15. If you go through all the heats as in my previous post then 10 heats will be 3-3, 2 heats(13 & 15) will be 5-1 & 3 heats(2,8 & 14 where no neat leader rides) will be 1-5. This would give a 43-47 score line to the team with 7 x 6 pointers. Your best riders score more than they average BUT your weaker riders score almost zero. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted April 13, 2022 2 hours ago, IronScorpion said: But it is not. Your heat leaders will score 40 points. A no1 scores 15, a no 3 scores 12 & a no5 scores 13 as he has ridden with the no1 in heats 13 & 15. If you go through all the heats as in my previous post then 10 heats will be 3-3, 2 heats(13 & 15) will be 5-1 & 3 heats(2,8 & 14 where no neat leader rides) will be 1-5. This would give a 43-47 score line to the team with 7 x 6 pointers. Your best riders score more than they average BUT your weaker riders score almost zero. correct my apologies but 43 points then you have 4 riders whose combined average would be circa 15 points. It would be pretty disastrous if those 4 only contributed 3 points of the back of three 1-5's. One of the 4 might even average more than the best rider in the other team. You'd be hard pushed to provide an example of a team having 4 riders failing to beat a single opponent. And the only need to do it three times to win the match. The reality is that Workington are the last team to win the Championship starting without a rider averaging less than 8.00 points and they finished someway behind Peterborough in the league table but had riders who had improved by the end of season play offs, from recollection. Noticeably no team started or ended the season with 3 riders averaging over 8. The fact that Poole followed the 3 big hitter policy last season and this would suggest there's an inherent advantage in fielding a strong top two/three, especially in a league where there aren't enough no1's to go around. At the end of last season there were only about 14 riders likely to return in 2022 who averaged over 8.00. With two clubs snapping up six of them it's not difficult to see why some teams are not competitive. You only have to look at the results so far this season to realise there's a large disparity in the team strengths. Can't be a good way to attract supporters in my opinion. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,243 Posted April 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, enotian said: correct my apologies but 43 points then you have 4 riders whose combined average would be circa 15 points. It would be pretty disastrous if those 4 only contributed 3 points of the back of three 1-5's. One of the 4 might even average more than the best rider in the other team. You'd be hard pushed to provide an example of a team having 4 riders failing to beat a single opponent. And the only need to do it three times to win the match. The reality is that Workington are the last team to win the Championship starting without a rider averaging less than 8.00 points and they finished someway behind Peterborough in the league table but had riders who had improved by the end of season play offs, from recollection. Noticeably no team started or ended the season with 3 riders averaging over 8. The fact that Poole followed the 3 big hitter policy last season and this would suggest there's an inherent advantage in fielding a strong top two/three, especially in a league where there aren't enough no1's to go around. At the end of last season there were only about 14 riders likely to return in 2022 who averaged over 8.00. With two clubs snapping up six of them it's not difficult to see why some teams are not competitive. You only have to look at the results so far this season to realise there's a large disparity in the team strengths. Can't be a good way to attract supporters in my opinion. But is a good way of dissuading supporters I would suggest... Even regulars.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted April 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, enotian said: You only have to look at the results so far this season to realise there's a large disparity in the team strengths. Can't be a good way to attract supporters in my opinion. Yeah but, isn't it more important to look after yourself and your own fans first? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted April 13, 2022 12 minutes ago, ruffdiamond said: Yeah but, isn't it more important to look after yourself and your own fans first? Short sighted in my opinion. Especially if you're looking to attract a new (neutral) audience via streaming. That's why the product needs to be good. Would you pay to watch the Diamonds get humiliated at Glasgow on Friday night? Ultimately if you strangle the life out of the opposition they'll disappear and there'll be even fewer teams. Just look at MotoGP and F1. They place restrictions on teams because they could see the product becoming boring with only a few riders/drivers able to win due to their financial clout. Which lead to some manufacturers leaving the series. You have to look at the wider product. Sport is about jeopardy. And lets face it how much of a thrill is winning a national speedway league? I remember the Diamonds win in 2001 and it was a great night but I didn't spend the rest of the year talking about it in the pub with my mates. It barely made the local news and didn't seem to have a significant impact on crowd levels like it probably did in the 70's. It's the ultimate cheap thrill so why damage the product for the sake of winning something nobody cares about anymore? 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, enotian said: Short sighted in my opinion. Agree! I remember the Diamonds win in 2001 and it was a great night but I didn't spend the rest of the year talking about it in the pub with my mates. Well, that's good. You shouldn't be be spending the rest of the year in the pub,,, unless it's your own pub/or work there!!! Its ok if it's New Year's Eve tho!!! Edited April 13, 2022 by ruffdiamond 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enotian 562 Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, ruffdiamond said: They won it in September so it was only 3 and a bit months in the pub. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted April 13, 2022 42 minutes ago, enotian said: They won it in September so it was only 3 and a bit months in the pub. A see ya good at maths. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
