Newcastle vs Redcar Tyne Tees Trophy 2nd leg 10th April 2022 4pm

[shippy22 60]

2 hours ago, Jaizer said:

All of whom proved last season not up to championship level. Throw in jpb into that as well

The problem at the moment, is that the gap between the Premier League & Championship is too small, and the gap between the Championship & National League is too large.  With Premier heat leaders riding in the championship,  only the very talented riders stepping up from the National League stand a chance.  The Championship standard should be more like the Newcastle team this year,  which would give riders similar to those above, a chance to score some points and progress.   Also, doubling up needs to be gradually reduced,  initially only allowing riders who do not ride in any overseas leagues to double up.    Imagine in the 1970's allowing top first division riders to ride in the second division !!

 

[Jaizer 2,863]

10 minutes ago, shippy22 said:

The problem at the moment, is that the gap between the Premier League & Championship is too small, and the gap between the Championship & National League is too large.  With Premier heat leaders riding in the championship,  only the very talented riders stepping up from the National League stand a chance.  The Championship standard should be more like the Newcastle team this year,  which would give riders similar to those above, a chance to score some points and progress.   Also, doubling up needs to be gradually reduced,  initially only allowing riders who do not ride in any overseas leagues to double up.    Imagine in the 1970's allowing top first division riders to ride in the second division !!

 

I keep seeing that argument but to my mind the 2nd tier isn't as strong as for example the late 90s and riders came through aplenty in those days. Shouldn't it be the talented riders that can make a go of it? 70s before my time tbh 

[enotian 562]

11 minutes ago, shippy22 said:

The problem at the moment, is that the gap between the Premier League & Championship is too small, and the gap between the Championship & National League is too large.  With Premier heat leaders riding in the championship,  only the very talented riders stepping up from the National League stand a chance.  The Championship standard should be more like the Newcastle team this year,  which would give riders similar to those above, a chance to score some points and progress.   Also, doubling up needs to be gradually reduced,  initially only allowing riders who do not ride in any overseas leagues to double up.    Imagine in the 1970's allowing top first division riders to ride in the second division !!

 

I think the reality is there should only be two divisions.  Not many might agree but I think that the current Premiership is a decent product based on the TV matches I've watched only.  But only six clubs is an issue. At least a couple of CL clubs could afford to compete at that level and sourcing 14 additional riders shouldn't dilute the product too much.

The CL should become a sustainable hybrid between the current CL and NL.  Used as a platform to progress British youngsters who would be the only riders allowed to ride in both divisions.  With the current 4 star riders being reserves in the PL and Heat leaders in the CL. Current CL 2nd strings would become Heat Leaders (i.e. Roynon, Wright, Wethers) with any non UK riders also being Heat leaders. With the reserve births restricted to riders of limited CL experience and 2nd string for those riders with CL experience you haven't achieved Heat leader status.

You can then see the career path for a youngster. SGP3, CL reserve, CL 2nd string, CL Heat Leader/PL reserve, PL 2nd string, PL Heat Leader/International rider, SGP. Some will progress more quickly than others, not all will make the grade but the opportunities should be there. And clubs would be incentivised to develop young riders with the overall aim of having British riders competing and winning on the World stage, which is still the best way of getting wider media coverage of the sport.

At a more sustainable level perhaps the likes of IoW and Mildenhall could join the CL and it would certainly be easier for new entrants (Workington, Coventry, Kent) to join.

Of course the problem is how do the current plethora of Double Uppers maintain their income levels? Without them increasing their demands on PL clubs?

My suggestion is to run a stand alone 4TT league akin to the Hundred in cricket. Which would form the content for the BSN.  Each match streamed would feature 3 away teams which should increase viewer numbers. You could even include clubs representing defunct tracks (Falcon's, Viking's, Bee's, Wasps, Heathens) to attract those lapsed supporters.

There were only 2 divisions in the 70's and that produced an incredible amount of British talent because the opportunities were there with the number of tracks in operation. Now there are less tracks a more structured career path is required. The current CL doesn't really provide those opportunities.

[enotian 562]

57 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

I keep seeing that argument but to my mind the 2nd tier isn't as strong as for example the late 90s and riders came through aplenty in those days. Shouldn't it be the talented riders that can make a go of it? 70s before my time tbh 

that's right but the standard of the top division is much reduced from that era as few World Stars compete whereas in the 90's they nearly all rode in the British/Elite league.  So whilst the 2nd division standard is reduced the gap between the divisions is much closer.  Which I think was a deliberate move by the promoters to encourage promotion and relegation between the two divisions which just never transpired.

Not sure the 90's produced British riders aplenty? Two world champs and no world cups?? Hardly any SGP round winners.  Appreciate it's before your time but compared to the 70's the 90's would be considered as a a barren spell. 

[Jaizer 2,863]

3 minutes ago, enotian said:

that's right but the standard of the top division is much reduced from that era as few World Stars compete whereas in the 90's they nearly all rode in the British/Elite league.  So whilst the 2nd division standard is reduced the gap between the divisions is much closer.  Which I think was a deliberate move by the promoters to encourage promotion and relegation between the two divisions which just never transpired.

Not sure the 90's produced British riders aplenty? Two world champs and no world cups?? Hardly any SGP round winners.  Appreciate it's before your time but compared to the 70's the 90's would be considered as a a barren spell. 

I'm not necessarily meaning world stars there were certainly plenty kids came through at 2nd string/ good reserve level. That Peterborough side for example had Howe, Allen, stead. Lee Richardson and Scott Nichols were breaking through

[enotian 562]

12 minutes ago, Jaizer said:

I'm not necessarily meaning world stars there were certainly plenty kids came through at 2nd string/ good reserve level. That Peterborough side for example had Howe, Allen, stead. Lee Richardson and Scott Nichols were breaking through

yeah it's a handful compared to what went before it.  there'll always be some opportunities for British youngsters by virtue of the low starting average. But with less teams operating and some teams not being able to secure no1's and building strength in depth (even though that's sub optimal) those opportunities are now less and less.  There'll always be special talents who are sought after and will achieve regardless. Robert Lambert was probably the last one but they don't come along too often. Others need sustained opportunity to progress.  The CL just isn't providing that currently.  Don't get me wrong youngsters can't be allowed to have protected team places without progressing but it's fairly easy to say you get 40 CL matches before your average increases regardless of your actual average. So youngsters know exactly what they need to do to retain a team place.

I don't think there are any debutants at reserve in the CL this season. How long will any current NL talents continue if they never get the opportunity to progress?

It's basically product development.  All successful businesses do it but speedway has lost its way in trying to meet the demands of the doubling up riders which has restricted opportunities for youth to progress. They clearly know it's an issue as they wouldn't have announced the rising star system but have had to abandon it after one season because it's unworkable at the current CL level, being full of experienced double uppers. 

[Jaizer 2,863]

4 minutes ago, enotian said:

yeah it's a handful compared to what went before it.  there'll always be some opportunities for British youngsters by virtue of the low starting average. But with less teams operating and some teams not being able to secure no1's and building strength in depth (even though that's sub optimal) those opportunities are now less and less.  There'll always be special talents who are sought after and will achieve regardless. Robert Lambert was probably the last one but they don't come along too often. Others need sustained opportunity to progress.  The CL just isn't providing that currently.  Don't get me wrong youngsters can't be allowed to have protected team places without progressing but it's fairly easy to say you get 40 CL matches before your average increases regardless of your actual average. So youngsters know exactly what they need to do to retain a team place.

I don't think there are any debutants at reserve in the CL this season. How long will any current NL talents continue if they never get the opportunity to progress?

It's basically product development.  All successful businesses do it but speedway has lost its way in trying to meet the demands of the doubling up riders which has restricted opportunities for youth to progress. They clearly know it's an issue as they wouldn't have announced the rising star system but have had to abandon it after one season because it's unworkable at the current CL level, being full of experienced double uppers. 

That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship

[gazzac 1,015]

2 hours ago, Jaizer said:

That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship

Like we had a few seasons ago that produced Brennen/Palin etc. From the outside seemed to be a concerted effort to lower the standard of the NL from the higher level promotions as it was pretty successful, and they didn't seem to want any encroachment on 'their' leagues. Still at least we have the successful Premiership Junior league.....

Edited April 13, 2022 by gazzac

[Jaizer 2,863]

15 minutes ago, gazzac said:

Like we had a few seasons ago that produced Brennen/Palin etc. From the outside seemed to be a concerted effort to lower the standard of the NL from the higher level promotions as it was pretty successful, and they didn't seem to want any encroachment on 'their' leagues. Still at least we have the successful Premiership Junior league.....

Exactly, should really have Newcastle maybe Birmingham in NL this year. Eastbourne and Workington next you'd have great base to work from there

[enotian 562]

3 hours ago, Jaizer said:

That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship

how you going to do that?

[Jaizer 2,863]

2 minutes ago, enotian said:

how you going to do that?

See above. Return it to competitive league with stand alone teams not reserve sides from prem and champ. Allow them to use British riders with champ averages under 4 or 5 with no age limit, allow some experienced guys in like used to with Armstrong, Atkin etc.

Not a blueprint but it's a start

[szkocjasid 3,018]

4 hours ago, Jaizer said:

That's because so many were rushed into the CL last season by the RS system. But the gap between the Thompson's, Palin etc and the next potential group is huge. The plan should be close that gap by improving NL not watering down the championship

Should both weaken the Champ & strengthen the NL to close the gap imo 

[Jaizer 2,863]

14 minutes ago, szkocjasid said:

Should both weaken the Champ & strengthen the NL to close the gap imo 

Then you'll just have same complaints there are now between prem and champ

[enotian 562]

1 hour ago, Jaizer said:

See above. Return it to competitive league with stand alone teams not reserve sides from prem and champ. Allow them to use British riders with champ averages under 4 or 5 with no age limit, allow some experienced guys in like used to with Armstrong, Atkin etc.

Not a blueprint but it's a start

Where are these stand alone clubs coming from? Is there Mildenhall and Kent presently.  Possibly IoW if they forgive BSPL. Potentially Workington although they might have loftier ambitions.

There's only enough clubs at present for two leagues of any integrity.  Newcastle should clearly drop into the NL but there just aren't enough fixtures and that's with reserve teams.

I agree the young riders need to face and learn from more experienced riders which is why the standard of the 2nd division should become a sustainable hybrid of the CL and NL with current CL 2nd strings become No1's.  Those CL clubs who don't want to reduce the standard can join the PL.  They employ many PL riders already anyway.

Having a sustainable 2nd division would potentially allow more new entrant promotions and teams to allow the sport to grow.  At the moment it's starving itself of oxygen by forcing promoters to spend beyond their means. 

[Jaizer 2,863]

3 minutes ago, enotian said:

Where are these stand alone clubs coming from? Is there Mildenhall and Kent presently.  Possibly IoW if they forgive BSPL. Potentially Workington although they might have loftier ambitions.

There's only enough clubs at present for two leagues of any integrity.  Newcastle should clearly drop into the NL but there just aren't enough fixtures and that's with reserve teams.

I agree the young riders need to face and learn from more experienced riders which is why the standard of the 2nd division should become a sustainable hybrid of the CL and NL with current CL 2nd strings become No1's.  Those CL clubs who don't want to reduce the standard can join the PL.  They employ many PL riders already anyway.

Having a sustainable 2nd division would potentially allow more new entrant promotions and teams to allow the sport to grow.  At the moment it's starving itself of oxygen by forcing promoters to spend beyond their means. 

Going to have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid. In any sport going from amateur to professional has to be a big jump, and if you can't make it then NDL is your level. 

The NDL as was 4 years ago was it's best level. Revert back to that would be my suggestion