Wee Eck 703 Posted June 9, 2022 1 hour ago, GWC said: 50 years ago nearly every rider had a full time job somewhere so a bike in the boot a set of leathers and a box of spanner’s was their major outlay. Nowadays riders have huge outlays so riding in one league doesn’t pay the bills. Promotions limited income plus a rider shortage and you have the scenario we have now. Sadly I don’t see things getting any better so enjoy it while it’s still here! So, what is the solution? Promoters get the blame, and some of them are certainly part of the problem, but none of them has been able to find a solution to reinvigorating the sport. Everyone knows that the Polish business model of town/city and even national subsidies will never happen here, so what’s to be done? Elsewhere, others have commented on the shocking crowd levels at Danish and Swedish meetings, so it’s a problem that goes beyond UK. UK promoters are an easy and constant target on here, but even the professional ones like Glasgow, Redcar, Poole and Wolves are struggling to make a decent return for their efforts. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GWC 495 Posted June 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Wee Eck said: So, what is the solution? Promoters get the blame, and some of them are certainly part of the problem, but none of them has been able to find a solution to reinvigorating the sport. Everyone knows that the Polish business model of town/city and even national subsidies will never happen here, so what’s to be done? Elsewhere, others have commented on the shocking crowd levels at Danish and Swedish meetings, so it’s a problem that goes beyond UK. UK promoters are an easy and constant target on here, but even the professional ones like Glasgow, Redcar, Poole and Wolves are struggling to make a decent return for their efforts. Sweden boomed when Tony Rickardson appeared and started winning everything Denmark built speedway centres after Ole Olsen won the world title in 1971 by 1979 they were a world power. I don’t know how we can have another revival like 1965 did after the slow decline at the end of the 1950’s. Its a totally different world now and people want different things standing watching 4 blokes go round a track doesn’t seem to excite the young. The atmosphere when I first went in the early 70’s has never been repeated sadly and now the south east is lost to the sport it only makes it worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted June 9, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wee Eck said: So, what is the solution? Promoters get the blame, and some of them are certainly part of the problem, but none of them has been able to find a solution to reinvigorating the sport. Everyone knows that the Polish business model of town/city and even national subsidies will never happen here, so what’s to be done? Elsewhere, others have commented on the shocking crowd levels at Danish and Swedish meetings, so it’s a problem that goes beyond UK. UK promoters are an easy and constant target on here, but even the professional ones like Glasgow, Redcar, Poole and Wolves are struggling to make a decent return for their efforts. For me, the lack of credibility is THE key issue and one that, if fixed, would at least start to encourage and engender that vital emotional attachment to a team that any fan of a team sport must have for it to have any purpose or merit.. When you can pick and choose what league you want to race in as "it suits you better" then all it sends out is a message that the leagues have no real worth in winning and should be treated accordingly.. Without aspiration to grow, any entity will stagnate then ultimately regress.. There is no doubt that within the sport there are clubs who are clearly at a certain level, yet choose to ply their trade in leagues either above or below their "natural position", which ultimately then renders the leagues uncompetitive as some teams are too strong for the league they compete in, or wildy out of their depth, and it also then means the supposed "flagship league" is nothing of the sort... Therefore. What should be seen as the aspirational pinnacle of the sport becomes almost an irrelevance given there isnt the will for many to want to compete for it... And when the "top league's" reputation carries such llittle kudos it then permeates down into the other leagues who subsequently then have even less kudos... The current set of Promoters are not responsible for all Speedways ills obviously, but their lack of innovation and desire for radical change to try and do something different, is definitely down to them.. Covid being a huge opportunity for a reset and relaunch that they chose to not take... What's that definition of insanity? UK Speedway is unfortunatley on rinse and repeat to do the same thing ad Infinitum... Yet. Frustratingly, the 'raw product' can still attract very decent crowds when the infrastructure around it is fit for purpose.. Something we often see, as an example, regularly, whenever an FIM meeting is held over here.... Proving that there is definitely many who still have an appetite for Speedway in the UK, and will willingly pay "top dollar" to attend it.. It's just not an appetite for domestic UK Speedway... As to why that is, is what the Promoters should be finding out, fixing the reasons why, and then hopefully reaping the reward of their enquiries by having fuller stadiums, and wider media coverage of their competitions due to their renewed level of kudos in winning.. Edited June 9, 2022 by mikebv 9 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
THE DEAN MACHINE 4,735 Posted June 9, 2022 Been banging this drum for a few years now, British speedway is run by the riders for the riders and until someone somewhere within the sport realises the fans are the be all and end all the sport will continue to die 20 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted June 10, 2022 5 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Been banging this drum for a few years now, British speedway is run by the riders for the riders and until someone somewhere within the sport realises the fans are the be all and end all the sport will continue to die 100%... And you can also add that the ego of some Promoters impacts far too much on how the sport is ran... eg. If you want to use Div One HL's, then put your team into Div One.. Or. if you cannot put on a show strong enough to compete in Div 2 then drop down to Div 3... You should ride at the level you are "organically" at, and not the one you decide gives you the most chance of (misguided use of the term that it is), "success".... The sport in the UK does come across as nothing more than a whimsical plaything for those who run it, and a way of allowing many of the riders to make as much money as they can so as to not need to work for six months of the year... Regardless of the impact to the overall credibility of the brand, and its competitions, that this clearly has... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cowboy cookie returns? 746 Posted June 10, 2022 I've seen the cost of living mentioned as a factor. I'm not really buying that. It may be a factor this year however speedway attendance levels have been in decline for past 30 years and in Sharp decline for the past 10. The sport doesn't have any credibility outside of its own inner circle the team competitions are run as a merry go round circus of riders of which a high proportion could appear for any team in any competition at anytime. The out of control doubling up & use of guests takes away any worth from these competitions. I hate to pick on Chris Harris but he highlights the issue. In the past week he has ridden for 3 different clubs across 2 divisions if Plymouth hadn't been called off on Tuesday it would have been 4 that is madness. The answers aren't easy and to be honest it could well be too late to save speedway let alone grow the sport. I don't like football comparison's however here in Ipswich we had a club that was on its knees no investment no interaction with the community. The club gets taken over investment is made it becomes attached to the local community again regularly starts pulling in gates in the mid 20000s and has sold almost 16000 season tickets for next season. Why it became appealing to go again they won back fans who hadn't been in years myself included but also a whole new audience. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FAST GATER 852 Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) Sadly I just don't think the sport has any future as a full time ocupation for those that take part ,even in the boom years of the 70's most riders were part timers . I know it is said that riders need three bikes and paid pit crew these days but if there was a scaling back of such costs they may actually make more/same money .I remember talking in the 70's to a second string who after costs was making almost as much as the team's star rider.He had good reliable engines non of the flashy bike add on's . Edited June 10, 2022 by FAST GATER Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topaz325 1,853 Posted June 10, 2022 Given the right conditions at clubs the sport may survive , running on a day when fans want to attend , a track that is fit for racing and adequate facilities . As Steve Lawson alluded to on a recent podcast , give the riders a decent track to race on and they will most likely entertain the crowd, it really does not matter what level of rider either . He was also against tracks made to fit around sports pitches, eg rugby, football and defiantly no stock cars. Now I realise there are many tracks in use today that are used in conjunction with other sports and we have to live with these. The only tracks I regularly visit now are Glasgow and Belle Vue which provide good racing and decent facilities on a regular basis. Although Glasgow disappointed a few times , maybe not their fault , about three or four years ago Birmingham turned up with a woefully weak team and last year I attended the Leicester fixture which had to be cancelled before a wheel was turned in front of decent crowd because of track problems (early afternoon rain ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GWC 495 Posted June 10, 2022 4 hours ago, FAST GATER said: Sadly I just don't think the sport has any future as a full time ocupation for those that take part ,even in the boom years of the 70's most riders were part timers . I know it is said that riders need three bikes and paid pit crew these days but if there was a scaling back of such costs they may actually make more/same money .I remember talking in the 70's to a second string who after costs was making almost as much as the team's star rider.He had good reliable engines non of the flashy bike add on's . I agree it matters not to me that a rider has 3 bikes or a great pit crew which, as you say didn’t happen in the 70’s. But Ivan Mauger and alike were different and remained at the top of the sport as they had the best equipment and back up which others couldn’t aspire to or afford. Today's riders want the best to be the best and that’s progress I guess but at huge cost. I also think the promoters are at fault here demanding consistent scoring from their riders who will be sacked if they dip below expectations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Come on the Skipper 75 Posted June 10, 2022 18 hours ago, GWC said: Sweden boomed when Tony Rickardson appeared and started winning everything Denmark built speedway centres after Ole Olsen won the world title in 1971 by 1979 they were a world power. I don’t know how we can have another revival like 1965 did after the slow decline at the end of the 1950’s. Its a totally different world now and people want different things standing watching 4 blokes go round a track doesn’t seem to excite the young. The atmosphere when I first went in the early 70’s has never been repeated sadly and now the south east is lost to the sport it only makes it worse. My Mrs is away this weekend so I thought I might take a trip to a meeting, but the nearest to me on Saturday is Leicester, a 272 mile round trip. Sunday is even worse, Newcastle is my closest meeting and that's a return trip of 606 miles! Although, I can at least watch the Newcastle match on BSN. Long gone are the days of Arena on a Friday, Canterbury on Saturday and Mildenhall on Sunday (Yes, I know that I'm showing my age) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted June 10, 2022 13 minutes ago, GWC said: I agree it matters not to me that a rider has 3 bikes or a great pit crew which, as you say didn’t happen in the 70’s. But Ivan Mauger and alike were different and remained at the top of the sport as they had the best equipment and back up which others couldn’t aspire to or afford. Today's riders want the best to be the best and that’s progress I guess but at huge cost. I also think the promoters are at fault here demanding consistent scoring from their riders who will be sacked if they dip below expectations. It is ultimately everyone from Promoters to Riders all racing to the bottom though isnt it? Clubs subsidising their riders own individual aspirations through their salaries... Individual success that will have zero positive impact (or very little at best), to the Promoters own business.. Fans then having to pay increased admission fees to get in to watch riders who have spent £30k and more on machinery.. And all to try and win competitions that, due to the way they are ran, will send hardly a ripple of recognition through the conurbations on their doorsteps, never mind have any impact on a wider national level.. Literally millions will be paid out across the 3 Divisions by riders, promoters and fans... Therefore. You do have to ask "Why?" When the growth of the sport seems to get no forward or upward movement out of such a huge ongoing annual outlay... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawk127 1,357 Posted June 10, 2022 14 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Been banging this drum for a few years now, British speedway is run by the riders for the riders and until someone somewhere within the sport realises the fans are the be all and end all the sport will continue to die Most would agree but some fault does llay with many supporters who for reasons best known to them will rarely turn out for anything other than a team league or cup match. Go back a good few years and you had a number of prestigious individual meetings and for local interest, three and four team tournaments (e g Eastbourne, Rayleigh, Canterbury etc. In the south east ) and admittedly a good few years back in that example but fans did turn up. League racing played a part but so did the array of other meetings which made up a seasons entertainment from March through to November but I guess the difference was that the sport had its villains and the good guys and that was not only the riders but the promoters so the entertainment value was on and off track. The promoters will not gamble money putting on a meeting knowing that they are unlikely to make a profit and with the lack of sponsorship for the big meetings which might attract the top names for the right money racing on a night when you will almost fill a stadium (Friday, Saturday or Sunday particularly when Poland take a summer break) means supporters are left with what you have today. The lack of large corporates/household names willing to underwrite a meeting is understandable as no one with a decent brand will want to be associated with a sport for all the reasons quoted by many of the more knowledgable contributors to this topic. So many issues arise be it from the state of the stadiums and facilities through to rider ability to rules. You then have the restrictions on rider movements between the U K and Europe so the sport has a lot to deal with but it is not helped by the custodians of the sport having failed miserably to grasp the post covid opportunity to reinvent the sport by trying something different to attract lapsed punters and new ones too. It will continue to experience a decline in interest from joe public until the promoters decide to look inwardly at what they have and stop looking at the sport through rose tinted glasses. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iainb 4,962 Posted June 11, 2022 19 hours ago, Come on the Skipper said: My Mrs is away this weekend so I thought I might take a trip to a meeting, but the nearest to me on Saturday is Leicester, a 272 mile round trip. Sunday is even worse, Newcastle is my closest meeting and that's a return trip of 606 miles! Although, I can at least watch the Newcastle match on BSN. Long gone are the days of Arena on a Friday, Canterbury on Saturday and Mildenhall on Sunday (Yes, I know that I'm showing my age) Where's you nearest airport? Get yourself over to Czestochowa v Torun on Sunday, could be there and back for the price of a trip to Leicester! 19 hours ago, GWC said: I agree it matters not to me that a rider has 3 bikes or a great pit crew which, as you say didn’t happen in the 70’s. But Ivan Mauger and alike were different and remained at the top of the sport as they had the best equipment and back up which others couldn’t aspire to or afford. Today's riders want the best to be the best and that’s progress I guess but at huge cost. I also think the promoters are at fault here demanding consistent scoring from their riders who will be sacked if they dip below expectations. I've always wondered what the benefit of top notch equipment is to riders. Personally I would have thought a rider would get a better performance increase by becoming a better rider rather than riding better bikes. It's a bit like the question always asked in F1, is it the car or is it the driver? How much percentage would you attribute to rider and bike? On a neutral track how many times out of 10 would, for example, Joe Thompson on a rocket ship beat Tai Woffinden on a donkey? 18 hours ago, Hawk127 said: Most would agree but some fault does llay with many supporters who for reasons best known to them will rarely turn out for anything other than a team league or cup match. Go back a good few years and you had a number of prestigious individual meetings and for local interest, three and four team tournaments (e g Eastbourne, Rayleigh, Canterbury etc. In the south east ) and admittedly a good few years back in that example but fans did turn up. League racing played a part but so did the array of other meetings which made up a seasons entertainment from March through to November but I guess the difference was that the sport had its villains and the good guys and that was not only the riders but the promoters so the entertainment value was on and off track. The promoters will not gamble money putting on a meeting knowing that they are unlikely to make a profit and with the lack of sponsorship for the big meetings which might attract the top names for the right money racing on a night when you will almost fill a stadium (Friday, Saturday or Sunday particularly when Poland take a summer break) means supporters are left with what you have today. The lack of large corporates/household names willing to underwrite a meeting is understandable as no one with a decent brand will want to be associated with a sport for all the reasons quoted by many of the more knowledgable contributors to this topic. So many issues arise be it from the state of the stadiums and facilities through to rider ability to rules. You then have the restrictions on rider movements between the U K and Europe so the sport has a lot to deal with but it is not helped by the custodians of the sport having failed miserably to grasp the post covid opportunity to reinvent the sport by trying something different to attract lapsed punters and new ones too. It will continue to experience a decline in interest from joe public until the promoters decide to look inwardly at what they have and stop looking at the sport through rose tinted glasses. The Peter Craven Memorial meeting at BV in March attracted a near sell out crowd on a Monday night with a pretty attractive line up, the racing was generally not great. Last years meeting was held on a Saturday night in October with an average line-up had some brilliant racing and wasn't more than half full... I'm not sure what tells us? Maybe it was the chance to see some riders that we don't normally get to see? The rider pool in the UK at the moment is so small I half expect to bump into Chris Harris on the tills in the local supermarket! Back in the day, you'd most likely get 1 chance to see Ivan Mauger ride at your track in the season and if you missed it, that was it, you'd have to travel or wait until next season. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,242 Posted June 11, 2022 55 minutes ago, iainb said: Where's you nearest airport? Get yourself over to Czestochowa v Torun on Sunday, could be there and back for the price of a trip to Leicester! I've always wondered what the benefit of top notch equipment is to riders. Personally I would have thought a rider would get a better performance increase by becoming a better rider rather than riding better bikes. It's a bit like the question always asked in F1, is it the car or is it the driver? How much percentage would you attribute to rider and bike? On a neutral track how many times out of 10 would, for example, Joe Thompson on a rocket ship beat Tai Woffinden on a donkey? The Peter Craven Memorial meeting at BV in March attracted a near sell out crowd on a Monday night with a pretty attractive line up, the racing was generally not great. Last years meeting was held on a Saturday night in October with an average line-up had some brilliant racing and wasn't more than half full... I'm not sure what tells us? Maybe it was the chance to see some riders that we don't normally get to see? The rider pool in the UK at the moment is so small I half expect to bump into Chris Harris on the tills in the local supermarket! Back in the day, you'd most likely get 1 chance to see Ivan Mauger ride at your track in the season and if you missed it, that was it, you'd have to travel or wait until next season. I remember gettting all excited as a kid when Ole Olsen was due at Cowley in 1972 in one of his too rare appearances. Ivan missed Cowley that season (when Belle Vue visited due to injury...wrists?) but I did get to see him at Reading's final meeting that season. The only occasion I saw him that season. Roll on many years and Erik Gundersen seemed to be riding at Cowley every other week during Oxford's "Glory Years". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted June 11, 2022 The "tipping point" of it being a credible offering in a Team Sport guise went probably a couple if decades ago, when 'Guestfests' started to appear regularly... Usually to accommodate the individual aspirations of the top riders as the FIM grew its competitions.. Then along came Poland and to a lesser degree Sweden, with their "lands of milk and honey" and suddenly there wasnt enough riders of a level that the Promoters steadfastly (or maybe stubbornly?), wanted to run their clubs at.. Hence we jumped into 'Doubleupfests' taking place every night, with the obvious knock on effect of making even more 'Guestfests' when these riders were either needed in two places at once or got injured, meaning two teams (and for a time three teams when 'Trebling Up' was in place), needed covering with riders from other teams.. The answer to this issue was an obvious one.. Realign the leagues into 3 clearly demarcated ones, ensuring that each team had an even share of what "upper level talent" remained, and reduce the numbers in the team to at least six, thus ensuring each team came to the tapes at the "correct level" for their infrastructure with the reduction to six per team meaning enough riders were available to be competitive at thier 'natural level'.. With the number six riders in the top two leagues being "RS' level to ensure development of UK talent existed.. Instead. We had "let's do fixed race nights so the top names will come back"... Which (as anyone with half a brain could foresee), didnt happen, and became "let's do fixed race nights so loads of riders can ride seven nights a week for any team that needs them, restricting clubs to nights on which they may not actually make the most money, and restricting the potential number of fans who attend given what should be a 'weekend sport' has now become an any night one".. When it needed vision and a radical plan for 'stand alone' future growth, it just got more of the same fudge, make do and mend.. Sadly A truly GREAT product, held back by ridiculous infrastructure.. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
