The Elite league

[iainb 4,962]

19 hours ago, mikebv said:

And charge an admission fee that people see as reflecting the actual value for money they get, rather than an admission fee that is set to allow competitors in a tiny minority sport to work six months of the year and have six months off...

Now I may have misremembered, but when I attended my first match at Leicester back in the 1977 season the admission price was £0.75, if you run that through an inflation calculator it equates to that being around £5.75 in today's money. To go to watch a film at the cinema, you can watch any film at any time for £4.99. The price of going to Speedway has spiralled out of control

[Humphrey Appleby 13,941]

5 hours ago, JCookie said:

Have you ever thought that everyone is just doing their best? 

Yes: the sport is ran as a shambles most of the time.

Yes: there is zero direction in this country of where the sport is going.

Yes: many fans just want to bury their head deep in the sand.

But everyone is just doing their best.

Yes, I don't doubt you're largely correct.

But if you're doing your best and it's still not good enough or in fact you're making things worse, maybe it's time to throw in the towel. There's really nothing worse than well meaning people who think they're holding things together, when in fact they're actually discouraging better people from getting involved. 

[mikebv 10,242]

3 hours ago, iainb said:

Now I may have misremembered, but when I attended my first match at Leicester back in the 1977 season the admission price was £0.75, if you run that through an inflation calculator it equates to that being around £5.75 in today's money. To go to watch a film at the cinema, you can watch any film at any time for £4.99. The price of going to Speedway has spiralled out of control

In 1977 though the promoters were paying most of the riders "good second job money", which was usually more than their main job... 

And most riders (the vast majority who were, just like today, 'non superstar" status), didnt expect to earn enough to have six months off each year...

The majority classing themselves for example, as a "Wagon driver who rode Speedway" not "A Professional Speedway rider"...

The sport as a collective takes in millions, and pays out millions..

"To achieve exactly what precisely?" would be a question worth asking themselves when they next meet..

Edited July 15, 2022 by mikebv

[Midland Red 2,383]

4 minutes ago, mikebv said:

In 1977 though the promoters were paying most of the riders "good second job money", which was usually more than their main job... 

And most riders (the vast majority who were 'non superstar" status), didnt expect to earn enough to have six months off each year...

The majority classing themselves for example, as a "Wagon diver who rode Speedway" not "A Professional Speedway rider"...

The sports as a collective takes in millions, and pays out millions..

"To achieve exactly what precisely?" would be a question worth asking themselves when they next meet..

Nail is hit on head

Edited July 15, 2022 by Midland Red

[Humphrey Appleby 13,941]

15 hours ago, enotian said:

Despite all this it is still one of the most thrilling sports to watch when it's done well.

I think that gives you the answer as to why speedway was once (relatively) successful. 

I do think speedway is quite difficult to market for a number reasons, not least because it's just sunk so low in so many ways. Incoherent and at times farcical organisation, poor facilities that potential spectators and sponsors wouldn't want to go anywhere near, an almost non-existent wider public presence, and a rapidly ageing fan base. There's no money to try to improve facilities, little collateral to borrow money against, and very much a hand-to-mouth existence that makes any sort of longer plan difficult to implement. 

But I think the sport does need to consider what price point it can realistically pitch itself at, work out what it can afford to pay, work out what riders are prepared to ride for what it can pay, and then base its structure on that. And that also means riding when people want to want, putting itself out on social media, have paid streaming for all teams and meetings (not just half of them).

There should basically be a two-tier structure - one regular league where costs are pitched to ensure there are always 12-16 teams, and a more flexible developmental league for everyone else. A 6-team top league is a joke, just screams that sport can't get its sums rights, and no serious sponsor is going to want to get involved. 

I also think you need to consider central contracts to control rider costs, try to ensure the same 6 or 7 riders ride in each meeting (barring injuries), and offer longer meetings with some sort of meaningful 'gimmick' competition after the main match to try out different concepts. Quite simply, maybe 4 riders going round in circles all the time is boring and it needs 8 or even 12 riders in some sort of F1-type configuration. It might be unpalatable to some existing fans, but they won't be around forever... 

[Humphrey Appleby 13,941]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:40 PM, steve roberts said:

....without the glut of "celebrity" culture programmes and reality rubbish we now have to endure however!

The 1970s was full of game shows that I seem to remember being denounced as dumbing down television. 

And of course most of the time you were looking at that girl with the creepy clown on the test card anyway...

Edited July 15, 2022 by Humphrey Appleby

[JCookie 753]

1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Yes, I don't doubt you're largely correct.

But if you're doing your best and it's still not good enough or in fact you're making things worse, maybe it's time to throw in the towel. There's really nothing worse than well meaning people who think they're holding things together, when in fact they're actually discouraging better people from getting involved. 

Believe me, I'm very much in agreement. My initial post was made with a big pinch of sarcasm. 

[steve roberts 9,242]

1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The 1970s was full of game shows that I seem to remember being denounced as dumbing down television. 

And of course most of the time you were looking at that girl with the creepy clown on the test card anyway...

There has always been an element of "dumb downed" TV especially when more channels appeared on the scene but we are subjected to far more trite presented by wannabe "celebs" with very little to offer. I recall that the New Theatre in Oxford used to book in soap "stars" to appear in pantomine and they bombed as the public grew tired of their inability to rouse any atmosphere on stage without having any "live" training hence why the Theatre turned to big West End Shows to present during the Xmas and New Year period with recognised stars who understood what live theatre was all about.

Top of my head I recall Saturday Evenings on BBC One being something like this:

Final Score followed by the News then...

Tom & Jerry (before the PC Brigade shoved their oar in!), Doctor Who, The Generation Game, Duchess of Duke Street and/or The Two Ronnies, Match of the Day, Michael Parkinson (when there were "stars" worth interviewing and had something to say) and then a late film (horror more often than not) Not a listing that was everyone's cup of tea but something for everyone.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by steve roberts

[auntie doris 2,339]

7 hours ago, iainb said:

Now I may have misremembered, but when I attended my first match at Leicester back in the 1977 season the admission price was £0.75, if you run that through an inflation calculator it equates to that being around £5.75 in today's money. To go to watch a film at the cinema, you can watch any film at any time for £4.99. The price of going to Speedway has spiralled out of control

10 quid at my cinema!!! I agree the cost of watching speedway has spiralled a lot faster than inflation. I remember in the early 70s when the cost to watch Swindon Town fc, Swindon Robins speedway, and going to the cinema was about the same. Watching Arsenal at Highbury in 1980 cost 1.50, everyone could afford to attend.

Paying 20 quid to watch Premier league speedway far too expensive, especially with only 6 clubs and few GP riders. How can peeps afford to go every week? You don't see many families attending now.

Edited July 15, 2022 by auntie doris

[enotian 562]

Isn't the answer that the top level of speedway in this country should actually be a European league? With Discovery Sports being the effective governing body.

Think of a pan European 16 team league on a 4TT (20 heats) basis. 5 home fixtures and 15 away. 20 meetings for each team with all the SGP stars and the best of the rest making up the 64 rider list.  Maybe some grading system so the SGP riders are spread across the teams. Maybe U21 riders at reserve.

Teams/Tracks selected to aid development of those venues to SGP standard and spread across a variety of countries.  Poland would dominate of course, say 4 Polish teams and two each from Sweden, Denmark and GB. With the remaining 6 teams from other European countries with a view to developing the sport in those countries.

It sounds like at least a £25 product given the calibre of rider and the scarcity of meetings (5 per venue plus any play off, i.e. only 10 meetings in the UK if there are two UK teams)

From a Discovery Sports perspective it's product development for the SGP and SON/SWC. In terms of riders and venues.  It also gives them loads of content for their subscription service (80 qualifying meetings plus play offs and grand final) they could even make the latter stages free to air to generate more subscriptions, with at least 10 countries with a team and many more with riders involved. It would also give them control over the rider assets and allow them to develop new stars from different countries making the SON and SWC better competitions in the long run. It gives them a clear rider progression plan SGP4, SGP3, SGP2  & (domestic leagues), Euro League and finally SGP, 

From a rider perspective those 20 meetings are probably all the SGP stars need.  Most do 28 fixtures across two leagues at the moment. The standard would be a similar to the Polish Extraliga to gauge form for the SGP.  Non SGP riders would have 20 meetings and the potential of riding in a domestic league(s).  For example if they did Euro League and 1 domestic league they'd have maybe 40+ league fixtures per year (not including cups or play offs) which would go some way to removing the curse of doubling up in the UK.  Whilst beyond Woffinden, Lambert and Bewley not many Brits would get Euro league places (maybe 4 more) if the SGP riders did sit out domestic speedway that would free up places across the Danish, Polish and Swedish leagues.  So those riders wanting to be full time professional could do so by riding in other domestic leagues.

Focusing on the UK the two Euro League teams would also have sides in the top domestic league, lets call it British Elite Speedway League (BESL) of say a maximum of 14 teams (13 home plus cup and play offs) is akin to the current fixture list for both PL and CL. Probably no need or ability to attract SGP riders in the BESL.  Heat Leaders being the top UK riders plus lower order foreign Euro League riders. 2nd strings UK based riders and/or young foreign riders. Reserves UK U21 (or age defined by number of suitable riders available [i.e. if there's not 28 U21 riders of a suitable standard increase to U24 etc]). Might struggle to attract a TV deal but focus on streaming.

Those age defined reserves (development riders) being the only riders allowed to also ride in the 2nd tier, lets call it the British Development Speedway League (BDSL), to give them track time and heat leader responsibility. supplemented by UK based semi professional riders and/or new foreign riders with at least one reserve being a UK rider with under 50 matches experience (junior development riders). A sustainable league focusing on youth development and priced accordingly.

Of course it would depend on the co-operation of the domestic authorities and them accepting their place in the pyramid so it would never happen.   

[Chris116 755]

On 7/13/2022 at 2:30 PM, Humphrey Appleby said:

Neither Hackney nor Wimbledon were knocked down for shopping centres or housing, and were replaced by other sports facilities. Well okay Hackney ended up being the Olympic media centre as far as I'm aware, but it could potentially have been relocated within the complex if the right representations had been made. 

I agree that Hackney went thanks to the 2012 Olympic games but Wimbledon was knocked down to build a football stadium and 600+ flats and for the developer it was the flats that made the money and the football stadium was just there to get planning permission.

[Humphrey Appleby 13,941]

23 hours ago, steve roberts said:

tom & Jerry (before the PC Brigade shoved their oar in!), Doctor Who, The Generation Game, Duchess of Duke Street and/or The Two Ronnies, Match of the Day, Michael Parkinson (when there were "stars" worth interviewing and had something to say) and then a late film (horror more often than not) Not a listing that was everyone's cup of tea but something for everyone.

Erm... Jim'll Fix It, Val Doonican, Little and Large and I'm sure many other terrible shows... 

 

[steve roberts 9,242]

2 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Erm... Jim'll Fix It, Val Doonican, Little and Large and I'm sure many other terrible shows... 

 

I guess it's down to personal opinion...I used to enjoy "The Black & White Minstrels" but the point is that there was more variety back then (good and bad) unlike today's bland "celeb" culture shows in whatever format, soaps (okay they've been around for many years but not at the intensity we now experience), and the constant "crime dramas" that now appear to fill our screens.

[chunky 6,086]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

but the point is that there was more variety back then (good and bad)

Ah, variety... God, how I miss that.

Singers, comedians, ventriloquists, magicians, jugglers... From 'The Good Old Days' to 'Junior Showtime' to Ralph Reader's 'Gang Show'.

[steve roberts 9,242]

3 hours ago, chunky said:

Ah, variety... God, how I miss that.

Singers, comedians, ventriloquists, magicians, jugglers... From 'The Good Old Days' to 'Junior Showtime' to Ralph Reader's 'Gang Show'.

I have an audio talking book with Roy Hudd based upon his book about the old Music Hall & Variety Acts...makes me laugh hearing Roy laugh as he quotes anecdotes from the past!