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Sidney the robin

Poole 1983.

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18 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Biased, I know, but Nielsen was THE rider of the middle/late eighties/early nineties in my opinion as Ivan was in the seventies with Olsen poking his nose in now and again although Peter Collins gave them the runaround and Michanek was sublime in 1973.

For me Steve Ivan/ ( Ole  he was not everyone’s cup of tea not yours ) were the benchmark from 69 / 73 .Michanek was a mega rider a beast top class Tommy got killed when approaching his peak Collins and  then a gangly Lee come on the scene.

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3 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

You said Nielsen was the best rider probably..? in1983 ..Lee got injured in the test series at Wimbledon in the USA tests.yet stats say Nielsen was great .For me  1983 Lee/Carter  had the  beating of him not easily  but t in 83 Lee and Carter blew him away often yes HANS was a great RIDER  and went on to prove GREATNESS.but not in 1983.

Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

 

For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

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8 hours ago, falcace said:

Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

 

For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

I certainly agree with you Falcace on the Siggy assumption he was a class act and would of been a threat to the Danes.Also don’t forget Billy the kid he was approaching his peak before his passing and had really pushed on in his career.Back to Lee yes of course most of his problems were of his own doing but was also pushed along the way with the help of a few vindictive people within the speedway circle.If times had of been different we COULD of had a period of a fit/ Stable Carter, a motiavated Lee, Siggy, Billy, Erik, Hans all pushing for glory it was not to be.1983 was a very good season for me enjoyed it very much even though the Swindon Robins had a dreadful team shocking really.

Edited by Sidney the robin

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Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

 

Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

 

Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

 

Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

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On 7/29/2022 at 11:39 PM, falcace said:

Lee was good in 1983. Very good. And at times, downright brilliant. I don't think he was the best rider in the world that year. That was probably Hans Nielsen. But he was back in the mix for sure and it would have been much more interesting having a motivated Lee, an active Penhall, a fit and stable Carter and a fit Sigalos around for a few more years to challenge and possibly beat Gundersen and Nielsen. 

Would agree with this. My stat ratings (which I'd like to update with a slightly revised methodology if I ever get time) had Nielsen top in 83, followed by Eric, Siggy then Lee. I suspect in a GP series Hans would have taken the title with Lee second. 

The rankings had Siggy third in the world in 82&83, 4th in 84 in a significantly curtailed season (Lee 5th). 

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21 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

I certainly agree with you Falcace on the Siggy assumption he was a class act and would of been a threat to the Danes.Also don’t forget Billy the kid he was approaching his peak before his passing and had really pushed on in his career.Back to Lee yes of course most of his problems were of his own doing but was also pushed along the way with the help of a few vindictive people within the speedway circle.If times had of been different we COULD of had a period of a fit/ Stable Carter, a motiavated Lee, Siggy, Billy, Erik, Hans all pushing for glory it was not to be.1983 was a very good season for me enjoyed it very much even though the Swindon Robins had a dreadful team shocking really.

Add Penhall to that list. And K Moran and Muller if they had taken the sport a little more seriously...

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On 7/31/2022 at 5:03 AM, falcace said:

Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

 

For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

Agree a big loss and clearly world class. Was he hard/ruthless enough to be World Champion is maybe the question mark, clearly he had the talent? 

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On 7/29/2022 at 3:07 PM, Sidney the robin said:

You must of seen Mike plenty of times at White City over the years Steve? i was fortunate anough to see him ride quite often.Have acquired quite alot of the 1983 footage of Michael and it still gives me great pleasure in seeing him reinvent himself after the 81/82 disaster seasons( a great 81 Longtrack victory though).

Have to say, 81 Lee was not as bad as some have made out. Disappointing compared to 79/80, but arguably still one of the top 5 riders in the world and Long track champ. 82 Lee was considerably worse...

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3 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

 

Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

 

Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

 

Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

Thanks for that Waiheke1 must appreciated.

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And in case you were interested Sid, Aces vs Sheffield 1/10/83

Golden Helmet:

1. Morton Lee 67.9

2. Lee  Morton 67.1

3. Lee Morton 68.7

Aces vs Sheffield:

Ht1: Lee L Carr Ross P White fell 69.3   3-3

ht 5: Lee P Carr D Morton P Collins Fell 70.0 (Collins fell L4 while leading) 15-15

ht8: Lee Wilson L Carr Smith 70.4   23-25

ht11: Lee Morton Bargh Smith 70.2  35-31

ht 13: Lee P Collins G Short C Morton ef D Morton ex tapes 70.4 Morton ef L3 while in second  42-36

Lee 15 point maximum 

(Meeting a double-header; Aces vs Birmingham followed, with Nielsen scoring 13, beaten twice by Mort)

 

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4 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Would agree with this. My stat ratings (which I'd like to update with a slightly revised methodology if I ever get time) had Nielsen top in 83, followed by Eric, Siggy then Lee. I suspect in a GP series Hans would have taken the title with Lee second. 

The rankings had Siggy third in the world in 82&83, 4th in 84 in a significantly curtailed season (Lee 5th). 

Possibly the best ever thread on this forum was the one about who would have been world champion in each of the seasons pre 1994 had they used a GP format. And 1983 was the one year that caused us most trouble with no real consensus and few strongly held views in favour of anyone.

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5 hours ago, arnieg said:

Possibly the best ever thread on this forum was the one about who would have been world champion in each of the seasons pre 1994 had they used a GP format. And 1983 was the one year that caused us most trouble with no real consensus and few strongly held views in favour of anyone.

Yep, great discussion, and agreed on 83. Half a dozen candidates, though realistically I find it hard to see past Nielsen or Lee, possibly Siggy. But then Gundersen did win the BLRC so maybe could have done enough; and if KC was not recovering from the immense disappointment of LA, maybe his season would have been different; and if they'd run it on genuine race tracks maybe Mort would have been in the running for the podium; or maybe Billy could have lifted himself for the big meetings as he tended to do on world final night;  still Hans from Lee for me though...

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13 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

 

Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

 

Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

 

Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

...and I bet Louis Carr "absolutely destroyed" Mike Lee in heat 10 :wink:

And who would've thought Andy Campbell would be the Aces' star signing two years on?

Thanks. Here's a beaut of a picture from heat 1..

DZVH--YU0AE3qQA.jpg

Edited by falcace

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2 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Yep, great discussion, and agreed on 83. Half a dozen candidates, though realistically I find it hard to see past Nielsen or Lee, possibly Siggy. But then Gundersen did win the BLRC so maybe could have done enough; and if KC was not recovering from the immense disappointment of LA, maybe his season would have been different; and if they'd run it on genuine race tracks maybe Mort would have been in the running for the podium; or maybe Billy could have lifted himself for the big meetings as he tended to do on world final night;  still Hans from Lee for me though...

Agreed. Would have been a lot of GP winners. Mort started the season on fire, Lee and Carter picked it up late season. Gundersen, Sigalos and Sanders all had their moments. But out of all them, they were all prone to a bad night here and there. That hardly ever happened with Nielsen.

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13 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

And in case you were interested Sid, Aces vs Sheffield 1/10/83

Golden Helmet:

1. Morton Lee 67.9

2. Lee  Morton 67.1

3. Lee Morton 68.7

Aces vs Sheffield:

Ht1: Lee L Carr Ross P White fell 69.3   3-3

ht 5: Lee P Carr D Morton P Collins Fell 70.0 (Collins fell L4 while leading) 15-15

ht8: Lee Wilson L Carr Smith 70.4   23-25

ht11: Lee Morton Bargh Smith 70.2  35-31

ht 13: Lee P Collins G Short C Morton ef D Morton ex tapes 70.4 Morton ef L3 while in second  42-36

Lee 15 point maximum 

(Meeting a double-header; Aces vs Birmingham followed, with Nielsen scoring 13, beaten twice by Mort)

Thanks again to beat Mort 2.1 at Hyde rd took some doing but to beat Carter  4,.0 and Erik 4.0  in the helmet took some doing.to.

Edited by Sidney the robin

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