Poole 1983.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

Agreed. Would have been a lot of GP winners. Mort started the season on fire, Lee and Carter picked it up late season. Gundersen, Sigalos and Sanders all had their moments. But out of all them, they were all prone to a bad night here and there. That hardly ever happened with Nielsen.

It did at Hackney in the test he was awful as was Erik       Lee / Carter had the beating of  both of them...Both Lee/Carter could beat anyone at any given time generally check the head to head over the years between Lee / Nielsen very interesting reading Falcace  from 1977 -1984.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[fatface 2,550]

12 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

It did at Hackney in the test he was awful as was Erik       Lee / Carter had the beating of  both of them...Both Lee/Carter could beat anyone at any given time generally check the head to head over the years between Lee / Nielsen very interesting reading Falcace  from 1977 -1984.

Great. Always interesting to see head to heads. From the year we are debating would certainly be interesting. Just to flag though, their two meetings in the World Championship were both won by Nielsen.

Yes, I can see that 8 points from 6 is a poor return from Nielsen in this one test you seem so interested in. Then again, it does better the 3, 4 and 4 posted by Lee in in the USA tests that season, albeit around a decent 12 pointer.

Sorry to hear that Nielsen and Gundersen were so awful that night at Hackney with Lee and Carter having the beating of them. Below par they may have been, but the records show that Nielsen actually beat Carter in both their meetings and Gundersen also still got the better of Lee once....not bad for "awful".

 

3rd Test at Hackney 8th July
Ht 1: Carter, Olsen, L Collins, Knudsen 62.0 4-2 4-2
Ht 2: Lee, Nielsen, P Collins, Thomsen 61.4 4-2 8-4
Ht 3: Ravn, Morton, Jessup, Gundersen 61.8 3-3 11-7
Ht 4: P Collins, Lee, Olsen, Knudsen 62.7 5-1 16-8
Ht 5: Jessup, Morton, Thomsen, Nielsen 62.7 5-1 21-9
Ht 6: Carter, L Collins, Gundersen, Ravn 62.5 5-1 26-10
Ht 7: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen 63.0 4-2 30-12
Ht 8: Nielsen, L Collins, Thomsen, Carter (ret) 63.2 2-4 32-16
Ht 9: Lee, Gundersen, Ravn, P Collins 62.4 3-3 35-19
Ht 10: Carter, Olsen, Rasmussen, L Collins (f) no time 3-3 38-22
Ht 11: Lee, P Collins, Eriksen, Nielsen (exc) 63.1 5-1 43-23
Ht 12: Jessup, Gundersen, Morton, Ravn 63.4 4-2 47-25
Ht 13: Lee, Olsen, Knudsen, P Collins 62.3 3-3 50-28
Ht 14: Thomsen, Morton, Jessup, Nielsen 63.2 3-3 53-31
Ht 15: Carter, Ravn, Gundersen, L Collins 63.3 3-3 56-34
Ht 16: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen (f exc) 64.2 4-2 60-36
Ht 17: Nielsen, Carter, Thomsen, L Collins 63.6 2-4 62-40
Ht 18: Gundersen, Lee, P Collins, Ravn 63.3 3-3 65-43

[waiheke1 4,295]

In major meetings that season, I make it 5-2 to Lee. 

Nielsen beating Lee in both meetings in the world championship, but Lee beating Nielsen twice in the test, twice in the BLRC and beating him again in the WTC Final.

Interesting though H2H results are, I'm always a little skeptical as to how meaningful they are, especially over such a low population (as opposed to today, where top GP riders will meet each other 15-20 times in the GPS alone.)

[waiheke1 4,295]

22 hours ago, falcace said:

...and I bet Louis Carr "absolutely destroyed" Mike Lee in heat 10 

And who would've thought Andy Campbell would be the Aces' star signing two years on?

Thanks. Here's a beaut of a picture from heat 1..

Funny you should say that, handwritten in my programme from the 1982 meeting vs Kings Lynn is "L Carr destroyed Lee" after a ht8 (I think) victory.

And that is a cracking photo, I have memories of Lee that season being unbelievably quick on occasion. Larry and Louis were a great 1-2 pairing for the Aces. 

As for the Andy Campbell signing, I think that was the worst of the Bamford era (ahead of Crang and Ingels - of all the Americans to sign, why the one who couldn't ride big tracks! - who were both in the same season)

[fatface 2,550]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

Funny you should say that, handwritten in my programme from the 1982 meeting vs Kings Lynn is "L Carr destroyed Lee" after a ht8 (I think) victory.

And that is a cracking photo, I have memories of Lee that season being unbelievably quick on occasion. Larry and Louis were a great 1-2 pairing for the Aces. 

As for the Andy Campbell signing, I think that was the worst of the Bamford era (ahead of Crang and Ingels - of all the Americans to sign, why the one who couldn't ride big tracks! - who were both in the same season)

Louis and Larry Ross were engine room pair that probably won the Aces the title in 82, coming up with important points when the mattered. Both dipped a bit in 83 and with that, so too did the Aces.

[fatface 2,550]

1 hour ago, waiheke1 said:

In major meetings that season, I make it 5-2 to Lee. 

Nielsen beating Lee in both meetings in the world championship, but Lee beating Nielsen twice in the test, twice in the BLRC and beating him again in the WTC Final.

Interesting though H2H results are, I'm always a little skeptical as to how meaningful they are, especially over such a low population (as opposed to today, where top GP riders will meet each other 15-20 times in the GPS alone.)

Definitely interesting and sometimes revealing, but not always presenting an accurate picture. For example, Gundersen has an 8-3 head to head comparison with Nielsen in World Finals and I think that does reveal something of a psychological edge he had over his rival. On the flipside, Carl Blackbird bagged a few wins against Nielsen, but I can't put that down to anything more than a quirk.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Definitely interesting and sometimes revealing, but not always presenting an accurate picture. For example, Gundersen has an 8-3 head to head comparison with Nielsen in World Finals and I think that does reveal something of a psychological edge he had over his rival. On the flipside, Carl Blackbird bagged a few wins against Nielsen, but I can't put that down to anything more than a quirk.

For me Erik always held an edge in big meetings against Hans pressure maybe who knows.Hans after his lucky let off against Tommy went on and look he was a great rider.My point was 1983 the BEST version of a Lee and a Carter had the beating of him Hans went to Oxford went up a few levels where certain riders fell away.

[steve roberts 9,242]

3 hours ago, falcace said:

Definitely interesting and sometimes revealing, but not always presenting an accurate picture. For example, Gundersen has an 8-3 head to head comparison with Nielsen in World Finals and I think that does reveal something of a psychological edge he had over his rival. On the flipside, Carl Blackbird bagged a few wins against Nielsen, but I can't put that down to anything more than a quirk.

...and yet they both won three World Finals before Erik's tragic accident which again does say sometihng about Nielsen's overal competitive ability.

As regards Carl Blackbird as they say, I was there, and all his stars were perfectly alligned on that evening. He never again rose to that level.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

20 hours ago, falcace said:

Great. Always interesting to see head to heads. From the year we are debating would certainly be interesting. Just to flag though, their two meetings in the World Championship were both won by Nielsen.

Yes, I can see that 8 points from 6 is a poor return from Nielsen in this one test you seem so interested in. Then again, it does better the 3, 4 and 4 posted by Lee in in the USA tests that season, albeit around a decent 12 pointer.

Sorry to hear that Nielsen and Gundersen were so awful that night at Hackney with Lee and Carter having the beating of them. Below par they may have been, but the records show that Nielsen actually beat Carter in both their meetings and Gundersen also still got the better of Lee once....not bad for "awful".

 

3rd Test at Hackney 8th July
Ht 1: Carter, Olsen, L Collins, Knudsen 62.0 4-2 4-2
Ht 2: Lee, Nielsen, P Collins, Thomsen 61.4 4-2 8-4
Ht 3: Ravn, Morton, Jessup, Gundersen 61.8 3-3 11-7
Ht 4: P Collins, Lee, Olsen, Knudsen 62.7 5-1 16-8
Ht 5: Jessup, Morton, Thomsen, Nielsen 62.7 5-1 21-9
Ht 6: Carter, L Collins, Gundersen, Ravn 62.5 5-1 26-10
Ht 7: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen 63.0 4-2 30-12
Ht 8: Nielsen, L Collins, Thomsen, Carter (ret) 63.2 2-4 32-16
Ht 9: Lee, Gundersen, Ravn, P Collins 62.4 3-3 35-19
Ht 10: Carter, Olsen, Rasmussen, L Collins (f) no time 3-3 38-22
Ht 11: Lee, P Collins, Eriksen, Nielsen (exc) 63.1 5-1 43-23
Ht 12: Jessup, Gundersen, Morton, Ravn 63.4 4-2 47-25
Ht 13: Lee, Olsen, Knudsen, P Collins 62.3 3-3 50-28
Ht 14: Thomsen, Morton, Jessup, Nielsen 63.2 3-3 53-31
Ht 15: Carter, Ravn, Gundersen, L Collins 63.3 3-3 56-34
Ht 16: Morton, Olsen, Jessup, Knudsen (f exc) 64.2 4-2 60-36
Ht 17: Nielsen, Carter, Thomsen, L Collins 63.6 2-4 62-40
Ht 18: Gundersen, Lee, P Collins, Ravn 63.3 3-3 65-43

In heat 8  ( Hackney test ) Carter was in front having passed Hans on the second lap and packing up on the last lap.Falcace you odviously followed the professors career like Steve Roberts and he was a true GREAT he certainly grew on me over the years.Was never a fan but see him quite a bit for Oxford and other meetings and you had to be impressed by his perseverance after a few setbacks that really impressed me.But the most impressive thing from Hans was his brilliant longevity at the top and going out at the right time.Being a Lee fan 1983 was a reminder of just how good he was and to be able to beat Hans/Erik who were the benchmark was no mean feat.Looking on now Hans would certainly be in my top 6 riders of all time and how many more titles could he have won over the GP format??? quite a few i think.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Sidney the robin

[fatface 2,550]

12 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...and yet they both won three World Finals before Erik's tragic accident which again does say sometihng about Nielsen's overal competitive ability.

As regards Carl Blackbird as they say, I was there, and all his stars were perfectly alligned on that evening. He never again rose to that level.

And yet, despite that. I reckon Carl Blackbird could and should have gone on to a better career. He had talent and could ride all types of tracks. But even when he was signed by Belle Vue and broke into the England team, he still only had one bike strapped onto the back on his car. Never seemed to give it a proper crack. 

[steve roberts 9,242]

28 minutes ago, falcace said:

And yet, despite that. I reckon Carl Blackbird could and should have gone on to a better career. He had talent and could ride all types of tracks. But even when he was signed by Belle Vue and broke into the England team, he still only had one bike strapped onto the back on his car. Never seemed to give it a proper crack. 

I recall an interview with Carl in "Backtrack" some years ago he said that he hadn't the resources and soon looked beyond the sport realising he was never going to make it pay?

[fatface 2,550]

4 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

In heat 8  ( Hackney test ) Carter was in front having passed Hans on the second lap and packing up on the last lap.Falcace you odviously followed the professors career like Steve Roberts and he was a true GREAT he certainly grew on me over the years.Was never a fan but see him quite a bit for Oxford and other meetings and you had to be impressed by his perseverance after a few setbacks that really impressed me.But the most impressive thing from Hans was his brilliant longevity at the top and going out at the right time.Being a Lee fan 1983 was a reminder of just how good he was and to be able to beat Hans/Erik who were the benchmark was no mean feat.Looking on now Hans would certainly be in my top 6 riders of all time and how many more titles could he have won over the GP format??? quite a few i think.

Not particularly a fan at all. I just like to see someone given their fair due. Hence, I can't really accept him being labelled as not world class or other riders 'destroying' or 'easily' beating him in a year when the facts indicate he was damn close to being, if not THE best rider in the world. Going forwards I can't think of any other rider who had as much control over a speedway bike as Hans Nielsen. But if I was to identify a chink in the armour, I think his nerve and judgement wavered a bit more than it did for other greats when it came to the very sharp end. He lost three run-offs for the World Title and let the 96 GP title slip when well within his grasp. And I think the clashes with Knudsen and Ermolenko (although he got away with the former) showed rare misjudgement.

[steve roberts 9,242]

32 minutes ago, falcace said:

Not particularly a fan at all. I just like to see someone given their fair due. Hence, I can't really accept him being labelled as not world class or other riders 'destroying' or 'easily' beating him in a year when the facts indicate he was damn close to being, if not THE best rider in the world. Going forwards I can't think of any other rider who had as much control over a speedway bike as Hans Nielsen. But if I was to identify a chink in the armour, I think his nerve and judgement wavered a bit more than it did for other greats when it came to the very sharp end. He lost three run-offs for the World Title and let the 96 GP title slip when well within his grasp. And I think the clashes with Knudsen and Ermolenko (although he got away with the former) showed rare misjudgement.

I was at Katowice when Hans won on 1986 and felt that the clash with Knudsen could have gone either way however having witnessed it at the time and numerous times over the years Knudsen was always inclined to ride "square bends" and ultimately that's what cost him trying to close a gap after it was too late. I saw him many times adopting this cornering technique and most of the time he got away with it.

As regards Nielsen and the 1996 GP it has been mentioned that certain riders (Ermolenko?) went out of their way to do favours for colleagues based upon earlier history remembering John Berry commenting and Sam mentioning it in his book.

[chunky 6,087]

20 hours ago, steve roberts said:

As regards Carl Blackbird as they say, I was there, and all his stars were perfectly alligned on that evening. He never again rose to that level.

It happens! In 1980, Roger Johns scored 16+1 at Hyde Rd in the KOC, and beat PC three times. He rode there in the BL a few weeks later, and scored 3...

[chunky 6,087]

5 hours ago, falcace said:

But if I was to identify a chink in the armour, I think his nerve and judgement wavered a bit more than it did for other greats when it came to the very sharp end.

It is also undoubtedly the reason he struggled for so long to make an impression in a World Final, when he had been one of the favourites.