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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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25 minutes ago, Phlipphlopp said:

It said its the best city to invest. Not live. No dubious intangibles about that. 

So what are the factors that constitute the best city to invest then, if there are no dubious intangibles...?

And if London is the best place in the world for doing business, then why is the UK Government moving departments to Wolverhampton...? :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

So what are the factors that constitute the best city to invest then, if there are no dubious intangibles...?

And if London is the best place in the world for doing business, then why is the UK Government moving departments to Wolverhampton...? :rolleyes:

Maybe for the same reason the DVLA is in Swansea. Its still the UK.

 

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1 hour ago, Phlipphlopp said:

It said its the best city to invest. Not live. No dubious intangibles about that. The best place to live is Devon. All bar the janner bit by Cornwall ;)

But not great to invest in, especially if you are a fisherman.

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Just now, dj350z said:

But not great to invest in, especially if you are a fisherman.

I agree. Joining the EEC back in the 1970's really killed the industry off.

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15 minutes ago, Phlipphlopp said:

I agree. Joining the EEC back in the 1970's really killed the industry off.

.....and it’s really good now!!

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4 minutes ago, dj350z said:

.....and it’s really good now!!

We'll see in 5 years time when we start to claw back more of the alloted catch as per the trade deal. Personally , i'd like all fishing in UK waters to be halved for several years to let species recover.

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1 hour ago, Phlipphlopp said:

Joining the EEC back in the 1970's really killed the industry off.

It killed itself off by dredging the oceans of life long before that.

After watching that fishing series on the BBC, it just confirmed to me that it's one of the most small-minded and short-sighted industries around. Best thing that could happen is for the government to buy out the trawlers, shut it down and re-develop the harbours... 

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14 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

It killed itself off by dredging the oceans of life long before that.

After watching that fishing series on the BBC, it just confirmed to me that it's one of the most small-minded and short-sighted industries around. Best thing that could happen is for the government to buy out the trawlers, shut it down and re-develop the harbours... 

Pretty much spot on. In nearly every episode of that programme a fisherman would say something along the lines of 'Back in the day we used to be able to haul tons off this area, we could fill the boat within a couple of hours, not like that now' and fishermen everywhere will blame quotas, climate change, poor spawning years, the EU, bad weather, sea anglers, fish migration patterns, the French, the Spaniards, the Dutch and every other conceivable excuse except looking to their own actions.

There's no denying that the rules governing them were crap and made their dangerous job more difficult but they didn't force them to target spawning fish, use techniques that capture whole shoals instead of just parts of them, hoover up 1000's of tonnes of sand eels, the main food source for numerous fish and sea bird species and sell them for fertiliser, continue to use illegal gill nets, continue to beam trawl when they know how much damage it does to the sea bed and to always push for maximum commercial yields of certain species rather than sustainable numbers. When the EU actually did do something right like increase the minimum landing size for bass the fishermen, instead of increasing their net mesh sizes to allow the smaller fish a chance to escape carried on using their old nets , landed fewer fish and chucked more undersized back dead.

The programme also highlighted something that's common around all fishing communities - most - not all - of the families involved have been fishing for generations and feel like they own the seas and everyone else on the water should make way for them and it's their right to take as much as they want.

If fishing is to have any future the fishermen sooner or later are going to have to realise they'll have to work with the EU to manage stocks. Unfortunately for them the fish don't recognise the arbitrary boundaries drawn on the seas and roam widely, There's not 'British fish' and 'EU fish'. There's also little point the UK catching fish in a sustainable way if the EU allows bigger catches, they have to move together.  I can't see it happening though, they're far too short sighted.

There'll always be a market for fish so there are opportunities for innovative fishermen who look at the long term picture. And they need to persuade consumers that there's more in the sea than just cod, haddock, mackerel and plaice. 

 

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After all that fuss about not getting the full amount of vaccine following their slow and cumbersome procurement process they then cut off their noses to spite their faces. This vaccine roll out has really highlighted some of the issues with the EU that we have been ridiculed for pointing out in the past.

Fury as French and German citizens reject AstraZeneca vaccine after Macron scaremongering (msn.com) (If the independent and guardian are ok to quote then so is the Express :D)

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7 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

It killed itself off by dredging the oceans of life long before that. 

I agree to a large extent. Did allowing other countries to do the same as well make it better or worse do you think?

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3 hours ago, Vince said:

I agree to a large extent. Did allowing other countries to do the same as well make it better or worse do you think?

You're comparing apples and pears.

The concept of EEZs (i.e. up to 200 miles) didn't really start until the mid-70s and weren't legally established until the early-80s, so fleets from any country could freely fish anywhere before that except within the UK's 3 mile territorial waters (extended to 12 miles in 1987). These 'UK waters' that fishermen bleat on about are not even 40 years old and certainly post-date the establishment of the EEC/EU. 

The fact that herring stocks collapsed in the late-60s and early-70s across the North Atlantic is evidence that overfishing really had nothing to do with the EEC/EU.

I think the EEC/EU actually attempted to bring some regulation to a conservation disaster. I think it can be argued how successful that was - although it seems fishing stocks have recovered in some places - but it's pretty clear that the fishing industry is its own worst enemy and will blame everyone but itself for not managing itself properly. I'm sure most farmers would probably understand that you can't kill all your sheep before they've lambed every spring, and there's only so many crops that the soil can sustain, but it seems the fishing industry is incapable of grasping this basic concept. 

That the UK's billion pound financial services industry has been jeopardised by such a short-sighted and irrelevant industry that is so environmentally damaging is nothing short of a scandalous disgrace. 

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

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40 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

You're comparing apples and pears.

The concept of EEZs (i.e. up to 200 miles) didn't really start until the mid-70s and weren't legally established until the early-80s, so fleets from any country could freely fish anywhere before that except within the UK's 3 mile territorial waters (extended to 12 miles in 1987). These 'UK waters' that fishermen bleat on about are not even 40 years old and certainly post-date the establishment of the EEC/EU. 

The fact that herring stocks collapsed in the late-60s and early-70s across the North Atlantic is evidence that overfishing really had nothing to do with the EEC/EU.

I think the EEC/EU actually attempted to bring some regulation to a conservation disaster. I think it can be argued how successful that was - although it seems fishing stocks have recovered in some places - but it's pretty clear that the fishing industry is its own worst enemy and will blame everyone but itself for not managing itself properly. I'm sure most farmers would probably understand that you can't kill all your sheep before they've lambed every spring, and there's only so many crops that the soil can sustain, but it seems the fishing industry is incapable of grasping this basic concept. 

That the UK's billion pound financial services industry has been jeopardised by such a short-sighted and irrelevant industry that is so environmentally damaging is nothing short of a scandalous disgrace. 

Nice politicians answer, more people using the same fishing methods either didn't make any difference or made it better then :D

Then in bold, after talking about apples and pears you say that the fishing industry is directly to blame for jeopardising the financial services industry! You have changed tack on that one though as not long ago you would have said decimated the financial services industry but I guess you have to when the collapse you assured us would happen immediately post a leave vote didn't happen. It is now looking ever more likely that the predicted collapse will not happen and that now it is more likely to prove a success than a failure of leaving the EU.

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4 hours ago, Vince said:

After all that fuss about not getting the full amount of vaccine following their slow and cumbersome procurement process they then cut off their noses to spite their faces. This vaccine roll out has really highlighted some of the issues with the EU that we have been ridiculed for pointing out in the past.

Fury as French and German citizens reject AstraZeneca vaccine after Macron scaremongering (msn.com) (If the independent and guardian are ok to quote then so is the Express :D)

The pandemic has shown the limitations of the EU (and Ursula herself) not only the vaccine, but now the EU are threatening procedings against a few countries that have border controls again, including Germany, Denmark and Hungary.......as if they weren't under the spotlight enough atm, they do a phloppy and dig the hole even deeper

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10 hours ago, Shrub said:

Pretty much spot on. In nearly every episode of that programme a fisherman would say something along the lines of 'Back in the day we used to be able to haul tons off this area, we could fill the boat within a couple of hours, not like that now' and fishermen everywhere will blame quotas, climate change, poor spawning years, the EU, bad weather, sea anglers, fish migration patterns, the French, the Spaniards, the Dutch and every other conceivable excuse except looking to their own actions.

There's no denying that the rules governing them were crap and made their dangerous job more difficult but they didn't force them to target spawning fish, use techniques that capture whole shoals instead of just parts of them, hoover up 1000's of tonnes of sand eels, the main food source for numerous fish and sea bird species and sell them for fertiliser, continue to use illegal gill nets, continue to beam trawl when they know how much damage it does to the sea bed and to always push for maximum commercial yields of certain species rather than sustainable numbers. When the EU actually did do something right like increase the minimum landing size for bass the fishermen, instead of increasing their net mesh sizes to allow the smaller fish a chance to escape carried on using their old nets , landed fewer fish and chucked more undersized back dead.

The programme also highlighted something that's common around all fishing communities - most - not all - of the families involved have been fishing for generations and feel like they own the seas and everyone else on the water should make way for them and it's their right to take as much as they want.

If fishing is to have any future the fishermen sooner or later are going to have to realise they'll have to work with the EU to manage stocks. Unfortunately for them the fish don't recognise the arbitrary boundaries drawn on the seas and roam widely, There's not 'British fish' and 'EU fish'. There's also little point the UK catching fish in a sustainable way if the EU allows bigger catches, they have to move together.  I can't see it happening though, they're far too short sighted.

There'll always be a market for fish so there are opportunities for innovative fishermen who look at the long term picture. And they need to persuade consumers that there's more in the sea than just cod, haddock, mackerel and plaice. 

 

Great post. But not only fishermen thought the oceans were unlimited in their resources. Governments thought they were unlimited in how much waste they could dump and pump into them

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

Then in bold, after talking about apples and pears you say that the fishing industry is directly to blame for jeopardising the financial services industry! You have changed tack on that one though as not long ago you would have said decimated the financial services industry but I guess you have to when the collapse you assured us would happen immediately post a leave vote didn't happen. It is now looking ever more likely that the predicted collapse will not happen and that now it is more likely to prove a success than a failure of leaving the EU.

I'd say that billions of assets leaving the UK financial sector and loss of jobs there - which has already happened whether you want to believe it or not - has already caused immense damage. But as you'd say, let's see where things are in 10 years time.. :rolleyes:

Yes though, the considerations of the fishing sector does seem to have held far more profitable sectors of the UK economy to ransom well beyond its own minuscule financial contribution. The UK should have regulatory alignment with its main market which would have allowed a far simpler and much better trade and services arrangement than the current abomination that businesses are now stuck with.

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