Jump to content
British Speedway Forum
The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...barely 3/4 then? As I keep saying there was also evidence that 1 in 4 people within the ages of 18 and 38 didn't register a vote...those most affected by the outcome of the referendum.

73% is actually a high figure in a referendum, but we were originally talking about how graduates voted, not all young people.

When it's all said and done though, it's now pretty irrelevant who actually voted for what. What the Brexiteers promised has not been delivered, and the dire effects of Brexit predicted by the Remainers has come to pass.

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

It's been explained plenty of times, but the sign said "We send the EU 350 million a week" which was an outright lie. That's even before you get to the misleading part implying that the made-up figure would go to the NHS instead.

But you know that very well of course. 

 

You mean YOU chose to interpret it that way.

I didn't, I saw it as saying we would be able to fund (give more to) the NHS out of what we 'save' by leaving.

Edited by Gambo
  • Like 4
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Gambo said:

You mean YOU chose to interpret it that way.

I didn't, I saw it as saying we would be able to fund (give more to) the NHS out of what we 'save' by leaving.

I choose to interpret it that way because it was clearly intended to mislead voters that way.

I also notice you haven't commented on the veracity of '350 million per week' claim.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I choose to interpret it that way because it was clearly intended to mislead voters that way.

I also notice you haven't commented on the veracity of '350 million per week' claim.

Maybe you should rephrase that to "I choose to interpret it that way because (in my opinion) it was clearly intended to mislead voters that way."

As for the £350 Million, what was the actual figure then?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

We weren't originally talking about all young people, but how graduates voted.

When it's all said and done though, it's now pretty irrelevant who actually voted for what. What the Brexiteers promised has not been delivered, and the dire effects of Brexit predicted by the Remainers has come to pass.

...I'm assuming that some within that age group were graduates? However at the end of the day I'm not that interested in statistical analysis. I carried out my democratic right and voted (although I would probably have voted differently now?) but I do get a bit fed up when the fingers are often pointed at those who did vote (whether remain or leave). Those that should be held accountable are those that didn't bother. They are the ones who should be scrutinised not those that did whatever side of the fence/argument they stood.

Edited by steve roberts
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Just Googled the answer for myself:

£350 million is roughly what we would pay to the EU budget without the rebate. The UK actually paid closer to £250 million a week. 

So you are correct in what you say, I'll give you that.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

They are the ones who should be scrutinised not those that did whatever side of the fence/argument they stood.

The ones who should be scrutinised are those who were allowed to pull off the political heist that was Brexit.

I don't blame or not blame those who didn't vote as I think people should have the right not to vote if they choose, but the manner in which the referendum was set-up was a farce. Constitutional change should never be enacted on simple pluralities because unlike general elections where the electorate can (and indeed often does) change it's mind every few years, you're usually stuck with the consequences of constitutional change for a generation. Which is why countries with more experience of constitutional change and public referenda, invariably insist on supermajority or qualified majority voting, and I'd say exactly the same if it were a Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish independence vote. 

I think it's reasonably clear that the vast majority of the public had little clue about the intricacies of EU and global trade, the Irish border problem, or even the realities of how reliant the UK economy was on EU migrants. They were told - multiple times by Brexit-supporting ministers - that the UK wouldn't lose out on EU trade whilst new trade would be developed with the 'rest of the world', that immigration would be controlled whilst failing to mention the corresponding detrimental consequences for British citizens, and that the UK would own all "its" fish without mentioning that it actually needed access to EU markets to sell most of it. Then there was all the rubbish about 'technological solutions' meaning there wouldn't need to be an Irish border etc.. also without explaining exactly how you'd prevent migration over an uncontrolled border. 

It was a litany of lies and misinformation that was swallowed wholeheartedly by those who wanted to believe it, even though it was pretty obvious to some of us what a load of rubbish it all was. And whilst you might say most Remain supporters were equally ignorant about such things, they weren't actually voting to tear everything up without any real advantage. 

Brexiteers can claim all they like that they knew what they were voting for, but I seriously doubt they thought they were voting for the devastation of the fishing industry, a 40% reduction in EU exports, 1.6 trillion pounds leaving the country in capital flight, a 10% contraction in the economy (the highest in recorded history), and rising costs due to increased bureaucracy and tariffs even before the full implementation of the Brexit Agreement has kicked in (which comes in April). We're now well into Project Reality, but the biggest reality was it was all so predictable...

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The ones who should be scrutinised are those who were allowed to pull off the political heist that was Brexit.

If it was in your words , a political heist , perhaps it should be those who allowed it to happen rather than those who were allowed. You can hardly blame the fox if the chickens were left unprotected.

It was, after all a Remain Prime Minister who put the referendum into his election manifesto, and it was the likes of Steve Shovlar who, by his own admission at the time voted for it, even though he now bleats about getting the result he didn’t expect.  Then of course we had Barrack Obama poking his nose into something that didn’t concern him , totally ignorant of the fact that threatening people is the way to get their backs up, not to the way to get them onside.

It was the Remain side that made a complete dogs breakfast of their campaign. Quite apart from the politics of it and whether you agree, disagree or don’t know/care the Remain campaign was out off the blocks too late, under the leadership of a senior politician, who was competent enough in his normal field but totally out of his depth in that kind of forum

Finally we had the former Prime Minister who told so many lies many people lost trust in the whole political class and just switched off to it all, his prime porky of course was telling us that unrestricted immigration from Eastern Europe would be no more than 15,000 when it actually turned out to be half a million.

The entire Remain campaign was a shambles from start to finish so it’s no surprise so many people couldn’t take it seriously and couldn’t be bothered to analyse it in  depth.  

Edited by E I Addio
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

It was, after all a Remain Prime Minister who put the referendum into his election manifesto, and it was the likes of Steve Shovlar who, by his own admission at the time voted for it, even though he now bleats about getting the result he didn’t expect.

It was the Remain side that made a complete dogs breakfast of their campaign. Quite apart from the politics of it and whether you agree, disagree or don’t know/care the Remain campaign was out off the blocks too late, under the leadership of a senior politician, who was competent enough in his normal field but totally out of his depth in that kind of forum

The whole failure of Brexit began because a weak Prime Minister failed to stand up to the bigoted wing of his party. He then went to Brussels to 're-negotiate' a number of issues, and rather than the second-largest financial contributor to the EU telling it that it was going to exercise existing treaty clauses, he simply accepted being told what he couldn't do by the former Luxembourg PM. 

But the reality is that there had been years of lies and misinformation propagated the eurosceptics through the conduits of the populist media, that was always going to be very hard to combat with technocratic arguments no matter that the economic and to some extent political (especially in Ireland) welfare of the UK dependent upon it. Outright lies from the Leave Campaign such as the 350 million per week going to the EU, and racist posters showing coloured people queuing up were also allowed to go unchallenged, when in fact there should have been prosecutions over those. 

And ultimately - no matter what Brexiteers may claim - it did largely come down to appealing to those who didn't like the number of funny foreigners in the country, no matter than they were providing them with healthcare services and harvesting their food. People rarely want to connect those dots when you start down that road no matter how eloquent the opposing arguments. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The whole failure of Brexit began because a weak Prime Minister failed to stand up to the bigoted wing of his party. He then went to Brussels to 're-negotiate' a number of issues, and rather than the second-largest financial contributor to the EU telling it that it was going to exercise existing treaty clauses, he simply accepted being told what he couldn't do by the former Luxembourg PM. 

But the reality is that there had been years of lies and misinformation propagated the eurosceptics through the conduits of the populist media, that was always going to be very hard to combat with technocratic arguments no matter that the economic and to some extent political (especially in Ireland) welfare of the UK dependent upon it. Outright lies from the Leave Campaign such as the 350 million per week going to the EU, and racist posters showing coloured people queuing up were also allowed to go unchallenged, when in fact there should have been prosecutions over those. 

And ultimately - no matter what Brexiteers may claim - it did largely come down to appealing to those who didn't like the number of funny foreigners in the country, no matter than they were providing them with healthcare services and harvesting their food. People rarely want to connect those dots when you start down that road no matter how eloquent the opposing arguments. 

WRONG on so many levels but, of course, you are always right. It's Easter, why not take a few days off. 

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

WRONG on so many levels but, of course, you are always right. It's Easter, why not take a few days off. 

HA's post was very true, but then you don't like facts !  It's Easter,  maybe you should make donations to the businesses and their workers who are losing out because of this utter Brexit nonsense. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, jrs said:

HA's post was very true, but then you don't like facts !  It's Easter,  maybe you should make donations to the businesses and their workers who are losing out because of this utter Brexit nonsense. 

NOT sure what the facts were other than Cameron made a dog's dinner off his attempt to negotiate a deal. HA's likes to insult and ridicule those who voted to Leave, that we are of inferior intelligence and intellect to Remainers, that we were swayed by a poster on a bus and our racist attitudes which is actually a load of bo**ocks. Millions of people wanted to Leave the EU long before the referendum and the various campaigns that preceded it. 

We had our opinion and judging by recent polls, and the EU's cock-ups with vaccination and their petty attempt to stop AstraZeneca sending vaccines here while at the same time saying they will not allow them to be used by millions of their own citizens, that hasn't changed.

No one will deny that there have been border problems but to say, as does HA and his ilk, that it is all down to the UK not realising what they had signed up for, is also manifestly stupid. 

Some members of the EU are determined to try and rub the UK's nose in the dirt as a lesson to other countries who might be looking for an exit and are refusing to show any modicum of common sense. 

But, of course, I wouldn't expect bigoted (to use one of HA's words) Remainers to accept that any fault lies across the Channel. 

Edited by PHILIPRISING
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the benefits of leaving, I have detected none so far.

'The founder of a Scottish dog food business has told how Brexit forced him to move to France after his exports to the EU were halted because of the new trade barriers in place since 1 January.' Guardian today

for example

 

Edited by ch958
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Privacy Policy