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Covid-19 Are we being told the truth ?

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Just now, DC2 said:

What does this mean then:

“Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.“

It means what it says. The study showed that "There were 8 cases of Covid-19 with onset at least 7 days after the second dose" therefore some vaccinated people will still develop Covid-19, that isn;t disputed. Whether the study showed those people suffered less severe illness I don't know as the study, as far as I can see, doesn't go into that detail.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

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Just now, MattK said:

It means what it says. The study showed that "There were 8 cases of Covid-19 with onset at least 7 days after the second dose" therefore some vaccinated people will still develop Covid-19, that isn;t disputed. Whether the study showed those people suffered less severe illness I don't know as the study, as far as I can see, doesn't go into that detail.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

“Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.“

So that means that although you have the vaccine you may still get Covid but the effect will be less severe?

Isn’t that what I said at the start?

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4 hours ago, Badge said:

My 94 year old mother hasn't had her appointment offered yet, however we here in Suffolk,  felixstowe where she lives in particular haven't started the roll out yet, apart from the hospitals etc.

One of my golf mates said his girlfriend’s father has got a vaccine appointment and he is only 78, he is in reasonable health so no reason for him to be pushed up the queue. He lives in Oxfordshire.

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2 minutes ago, DC2 said:

“Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.“

So that means that although you have the vaccine you may still get Covid but the effect will be less severe?

Isn’t that what I said at the start?

You said:

"We all thought the vaccines prevented you getting it but the message was changed to “preventing you getting the worst symptoms and effects”!"

The vaccine does prevent you getting it (Covid-19) and is 95% more effective at preventing you from "getting it" than not having the vaccine.

 

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Same problem in Scotland. The protective ring is busted yet again.

Image

 

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6 minutes ago, MattK said:

You said:

"We all thought the vaccines prevented you getting it but the message was changed to “preventing you getting the worst symptoms and effects”!"

The vaccine does prevent you getting it (Covid-19) and is 95% more effective at preventing you from "getting it" than not having the vaccine.

 

Not according to the government:

“Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.“

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1 minute ago, DC2 said:

Not according to the government:

“Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.“

Yes, some people WILL still get Covid-19. The study shows that.

However, what the study also shows is that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to not receiving the vaccine.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

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2 minutes ago, MattK said:

Yes, some people WILL still get Covid-19. The study shows that.

However, what the study also shows is that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to not receiving the vaccine.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

You don’t seem to understand.  The government says:

“the vaccine will reduce the chance of you suffering from COVID-19 disease

Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.

a full course will reduce your chance of becoming seriously ill.”

Now if you can find where they state that 95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid, I’d like to see that!

 

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12 minutes ago, MattK said:

Yes, some people WILL still get Covid-19. The study shows that.

However, what the study also shows is that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to not receiving the vaccine.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Here’s another explanation of why the government’s official view is more equivocal than the percentage that you quote:

“The clinical trials run by Pfizer and other companies were specifically designed to see whether vaccines protect people from getting sick from Covid-19. If volunteers developed symptoms like a fever or cough, they were then tested for the coronavirus.

But there’s abundant evidence that people can get infected with the coronavirus without ever showing symptoms. And so it’s possible that a number of people who got vaccinated in the clinical trials got infected, too, without ever realizing it. If those cases indeed exist, none of them are reflected in the 95 percent efficacy rate.”  NY Times

 

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2 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

You don’t seem to understand.  The government says:

“the vaccine will reduce the chance of you suffering from COVID-19 disease

Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.

a full course will reduce your chance of becoming seriously ill.”

Now if you can find where they state that 95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid, I’d like to see that!

 

No one says that 95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid.

The Pfizer study concluded that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to people who did not have the vaccine.

"A total of 43,548 participants underwent randomization, of whom 43,448 received injections: 21,720 with BNT162b2 and 21,728 with placebo. There were 8 cases of Covid-19 with onset at least 7 days after the second dose among participants assigned to receive BNT162b2 and 162 cases among those assigned to placebo; BNT162b2 was 95% effective in preventing Covid-19"

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

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4 minutes ago, MattK said:

No one says that 95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid.

 

What are you saying then?

You just said:

”what the study also shows is that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to not receiving the vaccine.”

And you can see above that the 95% result was about “getting sick” (i.e. symptomatic), not getting Covid.

Edited by DC2

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1 minute ago, DC2 said:

Here’s another explanation of why the government’s official view is more equivocal than the percentage that you quote:

“The clinical trials run by Pfizer and other companies were specifically designed to see whether vaccines protect people from getting sick from Covid-19. If volunteers developed symptoms like a fever or cough, they were then tested for the coronavirus.

But there’s abundant evidence that people can get infected with the coronavirus without ever showing symptoms. And so it’s possible that a number of people who got vaccinated in the clinical trials got infected, too, without ever realizing it. If those cases indeed exist, none of them are reflected in the 95 percent efficacy rate.”  NY Times

 

That's possible. It is also possible that they tested people at intervals to see if they had Covid-19, rather than just waited for them to report symptoms. 

Oh look:

Quote

 

Secondary Outcome Measures  :

For BNT162a1, BNT162b1, BNT162b2, and BNT162c2 (P/B): [ Time Frame: up to 162 days following dose administration ]

Functional antibody responses at 7±1 days and 21±2 days after primary immunization and at 21±2 days, 28±4 days, 63±5 days, and 162±7 days after the boost immunization.

 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04380701

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Today’s UK Hospital Covid 19 reported deaths

England   1012    57828

Scotland   79   (5102)

Wales  66  (4063)

NI  19   (1517)

Total  1176   - last  Wednesday  831 

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9 minutes ago, MattK said:

That's possible. It is also possible that they tested people at intervals to see if they had Covid-19, rather than just waited for them to report symptoms. 

Oh look:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04380701

Which part of this statement do you disagree with:

“The official view now is that once vaccinated you may still get the virus, you may still suffer some symptoms and you may still pass it on but you should not get the worst symptoms or die, at least in 90% or 95% of cases.“

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3 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

What are you saying then?

You just said:

”what the study also shows is that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to not receiving the vaccine.”

 

95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid

and

The vaccine is 95% effective at preventing Covid-19 compared to not receiving the vaccine

Are two different things.

The study cannot claim that "95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid" because that is not what they were testing for. In order to test for that you'd need to vaccinate a bunch of people and then infect them with SARS-CoV-2 to see the efficacy of the vaccine.

Instead, what they did was vaccinate half the study group and give the other half a placebo and then send them out in the big wide world to get infected themselves. This allows for a comparison of the two groups. Of those who got infected 8 people who had received the vaccine developed Covid-19 and there were 162 cases among those assigned to placebo. Therefore, you can equate that the vaccine is 95% effective at preventing the development of Covid.

Now, what you're quoting seems to be conflating the study with the wider infection. While the study does not find that "95% of those who receive the vaccine will not get Covid" if you assume not every person will be infected with SARS-CoV-2, then by definition, if the vaccine is 95% effective, then fewer than 95% of the vaccinated population will develop Covid-19.

However, I don't like this lazy conflation as it isn't supported by the evidence and therefore leads to confusion and doubt because it can be easily challenged.

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