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Covid-19 Are we being told the truth ?

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1 minute ago, E I Addio said:

As I said to Hump, you say voluntary he says legally enforceable. So someone has to sort that hurdle out first. If it’s voluntary a huge percentage won’t be taking it up, which makes the whole thing a bit pointless.

Really?

Why?

Is this a serious, threatening, fatal condition or not?

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9 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

They still cannot or will not disclose a patients medical history without permission. You are the one who talks about freedoms and the thin end of the wedge. If doctors were ordered to start disclosing medical records to lay people without permission it would be the thin end of a very big wedge.

It was only a comment, I wasn’t disagreeing with you...:)

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5 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

 Here’s the problem: you say it should be enforceable, DC2 says a few posts back it should be voluntary,  Thats just two people on one thread of a speedway forum , multiply that country wide with politicians and human rights groups putting their oar in and you have a multitude of problems. FWIW I think you are right I theory but as we are talking about freedoms I don’t see how you can frame a law that says you are ok up to 64 but we are coming to lock you up on your 65th birthday if you don’t conform.

It would be very easy to define on an age basis. All sorts of (sometimes draconian) laws apply to the under 18s and 16s etc... 

As to the rights and wrongs, I certainly don't think it's right how the UK government is ordering the entire population around at the moment; especially a government that I not only didn't vote for, but have utter contempt for. I do however, accept there are increased risks to certain sectors of the population, someone needs to make decisions about how to handle that, and it would be little different whoever was in charge. 

I would prefer though, that a far more strategic and targeted approach is taken towards lockdown now that it's abundantly clear who COVID-19 most affects. That basically means people over a certain age who are the ones putting the most strain on the NHS. I'm sorry for that (and I have elderly relatives too), but unprecedented situations require unprecedented measures, whilst all this needs an active economy to pay for it. 

As for other 'vulnerable' categories - that is much harder to define and would require health profiling which is opening a dangerous can of worms. But the one or two younger people in those categories who I'm aware of, are very strict on taking sensible precautions anyway. 

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1 minute ago, DC2 said:

Really?

Why?

Is this a serious, threatening, fatal condition or not?

1. A lot of people are walking round with serious conditions e,g diabetes, heart condition, obesity and others without realising it  others are in denial , others have their own reasons for wanting to escape and age based lock down.

2. There are a lot of “silent killers “ such as heart disease and strokes that the first anyone knows about is when they drop dead ( or have Covid ).

3 . The are loads that won’t have the vaccine for reasons of their own. It would be the same with seeing a doctor for shielding

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2 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

It would be very easy to define on an age basis. All sorts of (sometimes draconian) laws apply to the under 18s and 16s etc... 

As to the rights and wrongs, I certainly don't think it's right how the UK government is ordering the entire population around at the moment; especially a government that I not only didn't vote for, but have utter contempt for. I do however, accept there are increased risks to certain sectors of the population, someone needs to make decisions about how to handle that, and it would be little different whoever was in charge. 

I would prefer though, that a far more strategic and targeted approach is taken towards lockdown now that it's abundantly clear who COVID-19 most affects. That basically means people over a certain age who are the ones putting the most strain on the NHS. I'm sorry for that (and I have elderly relatives too), but unprecedented situations require unprecedented measures, whilst all this needs an active economy to pay for it. 

As for other 'vulnerable' categories - that is much harder to define and would require health profiling which is opening a dangerous can of worms. But the one or two younger people in those categories who I'm aware of, are very strict on taking sensible precautions anyway. 

I was originally asking Shrub to put some flesh on the bones of his case. We are getting away from that a little now. FWIW I think we are now getting on all fours a bit but my broad point is that it’s all very well to attack the lockdown as a blunt instrument, but making a more targeted approach is not as easy as many imagine , especially as it has proved to be beyond the wit of many more governments than just the UK. 
 

The other point is that before we had the vaccine governments couldn’t politically be seen to be doing nothing, they had to be seen to be doing something, irrespective of whether it was hugely effective.

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7 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

1. A lot of people are walking round with serious conditions e,g diabetes, heart condition, obesity and others without realising it  others are in denial , others have their own reasons for wanting to escape and age based lock down.

2. There are a lot of “silent killers “ such as heart disease and strokes that the first anyone knows about is when they drop dead ( or have Covid ).

3 . The are loads that won’t have the vaccine for reasons of their own. It would be the same with seeing a doctor for shielding

So, what’s your point?

Most of those people in all likelihood are still going to the supermarket and still working, many in the frontline services.

It would be a matter for anyone who is concerned about their health to go to their doctor, and then if diagnosed with a qualifying condition to take quarantine if they so wish.

 

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1 minute ago, E I Addio said:

The other point is that before we had the vaccine governments couldn’t politically be seen to be doing nothing, they had to be seen to be doing something, irrespective of whether it was hugely effective.

That may be true, but continuing to do something ineffective because 'something must be done' should not go without challenge, especially from the media and opposition parties. It's really quite pathetic how meek and unquestioning these institutions have been. 

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1 minute ago, DC2 said:

Most of those people in all likelihood are still going to the supermarket and still working, many in the frontline services.

A lot in the NHS, frankly... 

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6 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

It would be a matter for anyone who is concerned about their health to go to their doctor, and then if diagnosed with a qualifying condition to take quarantine if they so wish.

 

Perhaps if it was an insurance based NHS, and you'd pay the additional premium for your lifestyle and health choices. But perhaps not while it remains a basically free service paid by general taxes.

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1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

If a decision was made to allow people of certain ages but not others to largely go about their business, then it would have to be legally enforceable. Young people frequently get the blame for partying etc.., but those over 65 are actually amongst the worst for breaking the rules when everyone else is having to make sacrifices ostensibly to protect them. 

As for the cut-off age, should be based on the medical evidence, but certainly anyone over the legal age of retirement who no longer has to work.

They are now saying that over 50% of the over eighties have admitted to breaking the rules since they have had the vaccine.

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1 minute ago, Tim G said:

They are now saying that over 50% of the over eighties have admitted to breaking the rules since they have had the vaccine.

I know loads of over 65s who have broken the rules but blamed young people for “far worse” breaches.

In fact I could walk to the park now and overhear them moaning to each other on the park benches. :D

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I assume Iris lives in Sweden now, since he became the PR man for Expressen?  :D

Meanwhile, in Germany:

they have now approved the AZ vaccine for the over 65s, and

“From Monday up to five people from two households will be allowed to meet, with children under 14 exempt.  And

Some shops will reopen provided that regional case numbers are below 50 per 100,000 people.” BBC

 

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Today’s UK Hospital Covid 19 reported deaths

England    184     83917

Scotland    24  (7398)

Wales  13    (5366)

NI    3  (2066)

Total  224     - last  Thursday 311

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, DC2 said:

I assume Iris lives in Sweden now, since he became the PR man for Expressen?  :D

Meanwhile, in Germany:

they have now approved the AZ vaccine for the over 65s, and

“From Monday up to five people from two households will be allowed to meet, with children under 14 exempt.  And

Some shops will reopen provided that regional case numbers are below 50 per 100,000 people.” BBC

 

And Sweden too. About turn ref AZ.

Also Rio de janiero are going into lockdown and curfew

Edited by Badge

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3 hours ago, Blupanther said:

Told ya...

 

The question being who would control the 'real food supply?'

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