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17 hours ago, CrystalCastles said:

I would like to find a middle ground i guess. I think uniforms should be retained. But it seems to me the Authoritarian approach to Uniform doesn't work, it just causes confrontation. From my friends experiences it just leads to them getting abused and sworn at.

When I was at school we had three schools on the same site , Boys Grammar, Boys Secondary , and Girls Secondary. Only the Boys Grammar had to wear a uniform. We  all exited the site by the same gate. As we were the only ones wearing uniforms, we used to get the sorts of abuse you mention, people calling us Grammar Snobs and worse. With a matter of days I had learnt to deal with it and verbal abuse has never bothered me since. I wonder what sort of snowflakes we are producing if they can’t take a few harsh words from people who are basically jealous of them. 
I always think of Mark Twain’s quote : “ Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions.Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel you that you too can become great.”  A lot of a successful or happy life is to do with the sort of company you keep.If people abuse you because you wear a school uniform dont make friends with them, they ain’t worth it.

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CAME across this today ...

This hits the nail right on its head about Kneeling...

“We watched the Democratic leaders of Congress kneel in the halls of Congress for about 9 minutes, for the death of a Minneapolis black man named George Floyd.                                                                                                            I have never seen them kneel for a fallen Police Officer. I have never seen them kneel for a fallen Soldier. 

I never saw them kneel for the soldiers that Hillary & Obama left to die in Benghazi! I have never seen them kneel for the thousands of (black and white) babies aborted EVERY DAY. I have never seen them kneel for a murdered white man or woman. I have not seen them kneel for the thousands of black-on-black murder victims. I have not seen them kneel for the thousands of elderly people that died in nursing homes due to the Corona Virus.(Especially N.Y.)

I have to ask: WHY are Democrats putting the life of George Floyd as more valuable than the lives of everyone else? In fact, Democrats have put so much value on the life of George Floyd, they have allowed rioting, looting, arson, murder, and mayhem in several communities Nationwide...ask yourself – why now?"

The family (brothers and sister) of George Floyd opened a Go Fund Me account to "help the family"? It has already raised $14,455,100.00 and still counting from donations as of June 22, 2020. Yes, almost $14½ million. And now another $27 MILLION from the City of Minneapolis to settle their lawsuit.

This is for a guy who was arrested nine times; was a convicted drug dealer (and at a drug deal the day he died and passed a counterfeit bill); held a gun to the stomach of a pregnant lady while his five buddies robbed her home; did prison time three different times totalling about eight years, and, obviously, didn't learn from our penal system. And America is memorialising him by painting murals of the guy on the sides of buildings like he's a hero? Unbelievable!

You got to be kidding me. Crime does pay!..and to pour salt in the wound, Rep. Pelosi (Democrat) presented his brother a folded American flag flown over the Capitol in his honour in a beautiful tri-cornered presentation case.

And please don't conclude this is racist.

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Posted (edited)

I think Democrats honoured dead Officer Brian Sicknick alongside fellow officers and Republicans in the way they thought respectful. On the other hand what did Trump do ? But I can see why you think that hits the nail on the head :rolleyes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/flag-lowering-trump-sicknick.html

Biden joins congressional leaders and Capitol Police to honor fallen  officer from N.J. - nj.com

Edited by iris123
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1 hour ago, iris123 said:

I think Democrats honoured dead Officer Brian Sicknick alongside fellow officers and Republicans in the way they thought respectful. On the other hand what did Trump do ? But I can see why you think that hits the nail on the head :rolleyes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/flag-lowering-trump-sicknick.html

Biden joins congressional leaders and Capitol Police to honor fallen  officer from N.J. - nj.com

Political virtue signalling for a man who died from a stroke/blood clot...

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Just now, Blupanther said:

Political virtue signalling for a man who died from a stroke/blood clot...

Yet again retarded stuff from a joke who thinks he is a Doctor. The court will decide, not you

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7 hours ago, Vince said:

I'm sorry but I can't see the reasoning behind the approach that says if rules are difficult to enforce we should do away with them.

School uniform may seem irrelevant to everyday life after school but in truth it isn't really. The majority of people will eventually work in an environment where there is either a uniform or a dress code that has to be adhered to. Not wearing that uniform or adhering to the dress code wouldn't in theory make any difference to their ability to do the job, however for many not wearing uniform would mean dismissal and do we really expect to visit our Bank Manager and find somebody wearing ripped jeans and a T shirt while sporting Tai type earrings and a coloured mohican? For most the rest of their life will mean accepting wearing certain clothes and accepting some rules about their appearance that they may not agree with.

I agree that a Teachers primary responsibility is to educate but suspect we differ in what we consider education to mean. I believe education should be about preparing young people for the 60 or 70 years of life after school where I suspect you see it as an academic exercise preparing them for College or University. 

I have a theory that the emphasis on academic achievement above all else grows with each generation as ever more people go through the university system. For instance the majority of my secondary school teachers had been employed outside of the education environment for at least some of their working life, even if it were only a couple of years national service. Now Teachers have rarely left the school/university/school system and therefore lack the knowledge of how life works outside of that environment.

We all like to think that our life experience has given us a better understanding than the next person so they quite naturally believe that giving kids the best education means giving them great academic skills. For some that will undoubtedly be true but for others basic numeracy and literacy is enough to prepare them for the careers they will end up doing. The specific theory they need to know can be taught on the job (I had almost no school experience of the imperial system so training as a mechanic involved most of the theory day at Technical College doing maths using that system). School cannot teach everything so why not give as broad an education in the basics of as much as possible? Colleges and Universities can then go onto more advanced academic studies in the specific area of study while workplaces and Technical colleges can do the same for specific jobs. Basic use of hand tools will be more important to a large number of kids than proper grammar yet the majority seem to leave school without the ability to so much as push a broom. 

The acceptance of rules that may not suit you as an individual is part of living in a worthwhile society and needs to be taught and learned like everything else.

I wouldn't do away with rules either, but with Uniform, and peoples approach to it, we are talking about something that causes far more problems than it is worth. 

Interesting that you should mention banks, having worked in a Halifax in branch for 3 years, it really wouldn't bother me what someone looked like or what they chose to wear.

I was quite happy to wear a uniform in my time there, because i happened to like wearing suits. But at the same time when the Air Con was broke, and during summer it wasn't very pleasant. When i started i also had the opportunity to work with someone who had worked in Branch at that point for 30-35 years. He started out as a cashier, when he started out it was compulsory to wear a Tophat,a waistcoat and a Blazer. 

Different generations have very different attitudes towards things but times change, all i wanted to do was try and put a different opinion across. I think i have moved past the age of being able to classify myself as young or young enough to feel that i still represent younger people. Sadly though i think the opinions/views of the youth in our country are pretty much ignored or immediately misunderstood and disregarded.

I don't tend to agree with a lot of your or E L Adido's posts, but at the same time i enjoy reading them. I always think that both of you take time about your posts, especially when expressing your views and are willing to have a discussion.


Regarding what i view as Education it probably is probably accurate based on what i have posted, but i went to a school that was heavily academic, at a time when that was all that Schools focused on.

However I actually fully agree with you regarding the focus on Academic achievement, i think there has been far too much focus on that. I think having watched the Back in Time For School series, looking back at schools in previous era's a lot of things that were fundamentally useful have been stripped away.

But i also understand the way our economy has changed has heavily influenced that.

I think previous governments have unfortunately taken bad decisions about our Education system as a whole for the last 20-25 years, and have failed to address the problems they have created. I think in the last 10 years they have attempted to rectify that with some new ideas that have just re-invented the wheel but i don't really think they have been that successful.

Lots of people can learn on the job, but i don't think there are as many jobs for people to learn on the job anymore and i think employers are actually very hesitant to do that, especially when they can pick up experienced people to do those jobs.

Our governments answer for a very long time has simply been to push young people towards any form of studying.

A basic use of hand tools would be far more useful to a lot of people, including me (I would have enjoyed the opportunity to do more things like that) i can use a broom though.

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6 hours ago, E I Addio said:

When I was at school we had three schools on the same site , Boys Grammar, Boys Secondary , and Girls Secondary. Only the Boys Grammar had to wear a uniform. We  all exited the site by the same gate. As we were the only ones wearing uniforms, we used to get the sorts of abuse you mention, people calling us Grammar Snobs and worse. With a matter of days I had learnt to deal with it and verbal abuse has never bothered me since. I wonder what sort of snowflakes we are producing if they can’t take a few harsh words from people who are basically jealous of them. 
I always think of Mark Twain’s quote : “ Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions.Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel you that you too can become great.”  A lot of a successful or happy life is to do with the sort of company you keep.If people abuse you because you wear a school uniform dont make friends with them, they ain’t worth it.

I agree with your post. Kids do get abused and sworn at because of school uniform, but you are quite right if those people abuse you then they aren't worth knowing.

However my comment regarding my friends, was poorly worded. 
To clarify my post should have read that my friends who have decided to go into teaching, quite often get abused and sworn at simply because they have to deal with kids pushing the boundaries with school uniform policy, or simply rebelling against it.

The stricter the enforcement, the worse they have found the response.

I think that situation is made worse a lot of the time, by completely overhauling school policy or rules.

This seems to happen a lot when new head teachers are appointed or governors decide that they want to make an impression.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Vince said:

I have a theory that the emphasis on academic achievement above all else grows with each generation as ever more people go through the university system. For instance the majority of my secondary school teachers had been employed outside of the education environment for at least some of their working life, even if it were only a couple of years national service. Now Teachers have rarely left the school/university/school system and therefore lack the knowledge of how life works outside of that environment.

There are many very good points in your post Vince.  I would just point out that, in my experience, most teachers would react very positively to a curriculum that embraced wider skills - whatever that would look like.  However, teacher's lack of knowledge (or not) of the wider world has very little indeed to do with what they teach.  In this country we have an education system that is constructed to (pretty much) only teach knowledge that is (in theory) measurable.  Successive governments over the last 30 years have been obsessed with it.  Children's knowledge is formally measured at the ages of 10/11 and 15/16.  But the crunch is that for many years OFSTED, which in theory operates independently of the government, has inspected schools and made judgements upon them based very much on the results children achieve in those formal tests.  Poor test results are published in league tables, might result in an early OFSTED visit, or a poor OFSTED assessment and ultimately the Headteacher being moved on/losing their job.   As you can imagine, that places an enormous focus on what a school actually does and has produced a culture in which the emphasis is very much on the teaching of 'traditional' subjects, tests and their results.

Interestingly, in the last couple of years OFSTED, under whats-her-name Spelman, has shown more flexibility and placed more of a 'holistic' approach on judging a school's performance.

In order to create the kind of education system you discussed though, there would need to be a fundamental shift in government thinking as ultimately they are the ones that decide the content of teaching.  

Edited by Kester
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10 hours ago, CrystalCastles said:

I wouldn't do away with rules either, but with Uniform, and peoples approach to it, we are talking about something that causes far more problems than it is worth. 

Interesting that you should mention banks, having worked in a Halifax in branch for 3 years, it really wouldn't bother me what someone looked like or what they chose to wear.

Lots of people can learn on the job, but i don't think there are as many jobs for people to learn on the job anymore and i think employers are actually very hesitant to do that, especially when they can pick up experienced people to do those jobs.

Our governments answer for a very long time has simply been to push young people towards any form of studying.

A basic use of hand tools would be far more useful to a lot of people, including me (I would have enjoyed the opportunity to do more things like that) i can use a broom though.

I do agree with much of what you say, so cut the quote to the bits I disagree with :D

I still think that uniform while unimportant in itself is a life lesson for pupils that they will, usually completely unfairly, be judged on appearances for the rest of their life. It is also a lesson in simply fitting in with everybody else because while individuality is important it is sometimes more beneficial to be part of something larger. The same kids that object to school uniform seem to have little problem wearing whatever the 'street' uniform of the day is - and I include my much younger self in that.

I think the increase in further education has helped decrease the number of proper apprenticeships and other on the job learning opportunities. Companies now have the opportunity to take somebody on that has matured by another few years rather than a 16 year old so list A levels and degrees as entry qualifications for the most mundane jobs.

I left school 18 months before I was due to so had no academic qualifications at all, I still managed to get an apprenticeship by virtue of the fact that I had spent most of that 18 months working in a garage. If nothing else it made me a very good first year apprentice and I was ahead of the game for at least the first couple of years and the academic requirements of the job were hardly tough and I picked them up on day release easily enough. Today though that opportunity would never arise. It could be argued that with todays more technical and computer operated vehicle systems you need more academic qualifications but it simply isn't true, you just need to be ale to operate a laptop using a certain system. 

There are a huge number of teenagers and early 20's out there who didn't achieve much at school for various reasons and are then struggling to find jobs because of the no qualifications/ no experience trap. They could be doing all those unskilled jobs and then the best of them could progress within those jobs into more skilled and even management positions if it weren't for the weight that academic qualifications now carry. Those are often the groups that see fiddling benefits, stealing and drug dealing as their best opportunities, to my way of thinking it is madness.

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1 hour ago, Kester said:

There are many very good points in your post Vince.  I would just point out that, in my experience, most teachers would react very positively to a curriculum that embraced wider skills - whatever that would look like.  However, teacher's lack of knowledge (or not) of the wider world has very little indeed to do with what they teach.  In this country we have an education system that is constructed to (pretty much) only teach knowledge that is (in theory) measurable.  Successive governments over the last 30 years have been obsessed with it.  Children's knowledge is formally measured at the ages of 10/11 and 15/16.  But the crunch is that for many years OFSTED, which in theory operates independently of the government, has inspected schools and made judgements upon them based very much on the results children achieve in those formal tests.  Poor test results are published in league tables, might result in an early OFSTED visit, or a poor OFSTED assessment and ultimately the Headteacher being moved on/losing their job.   As you can imagine, that places an enormous focus on what a school actually does and has produced a culture in which the emphasis is very much on the teaching of 'traditional' subjects, tests and their results.

Interestingly, in the last couple of years OFSTED, under whats-her-name Spelman, has shown more flexibility and placed more of a 'holistic' approach on judging a school's performance.

In order to create the kind of education system you discussed though, there would need to be a fundamental shift in government thinking as ultimately they are the ones that decide the content of teaching.  

You are right, I blamed the Teachers for the system that they worked in and that is unfair.

However I still think that the university to certain jobs route does leave many lacking in some life experience (as does the not going to university route I have no doubt). That applies to politicians as much or maybe more than teachers. We have ever more people being ultimately educated by the same core of people with similar understanding and values and that, in my opinion, can't be a good thing.

It is for certain that there needs to be a fundamental change in government thinking on education but it is natural to consider your route to success (any politician making government considers themselves a success!) the best way to go so I don't ever see it happening.

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18 minutes ago, Vince said:

You are right, I blamed the Teachers for the system that they worked in and that is unfair.

However I still think that the university to certain jobs route does leave many lacking in some life experience (as does the not going to university route I have no doubt). That applies to politicians as much or maybe more than teachers. We have ever more people being ultimately educated by the same core of people with similar understanding and values and that, in my opinion, can't be a good thing.

It is for certain that there needs to be a fundamental change in government thinking on education but it is natural to consider your route to success (any politician making government considers themselves a success!) the best way to go so I don't ever see it happening.

Agree entirely.  As you say, the question that needs to be asked is 'what is education for?'  But it won't be.

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Some interesting points in the last 5or 6 posts that have made me think.

Regarding, teachers, I hated senior school more or less from the day I started to the day I left. I hated it so much I still remember cycling out the school gates for athe last time thinking I’m determined not to look back for one last memory of the dreadful place. The reason I hated the place was the teachers, and especially the head teacher. Absolutely nothing to do with school uniform, which I never minded. I left aged 16 with one O Level and got a job with one day a week day release at college. Once on the day release course, I got the passes I should have had a school, which got me onto the business studies course I wanted to be on, and which I sailed through with no problem , and thoroughly enjoyed. 
 

I often ask myself why it was I did so badly at school and so well at college. I can only it it down to the quality of the teaching.Most of those at college at previously been in the business world , as I was by then and I was able to relate what I learned to the job I was doing. Looking back the teachers at school were hopelessly out of touch. All I can remember about maths lessons was at school was our teacher constantly ( it seemed ) ranting on about Harold Larwood  and the 1933 body line series , or our lefty geography teacher telling us it was completely unnecessary to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, then calling us all pathetic when we  had such poor exam results. It was a totally different attitude at college. So unless school life has changed dramatically I would agree teachers and teaching methods could do with a shake up. 
 

However, we have digressed a little from my main point which was the malevolent influence of Black Lives Matter and people like them . I absolutely don’t believe that teenagers have the ability to organise themselves in a sufficiently coherent way to effectively riot and burn flags etc unless a more mature ,person or persons are behind it. Most adults don’t have that ability that’s why trades unions were formed to fight for the working mans interests. Couple that with things like the so called Trojan horse in Birmingham where one group were trying to swing the curriculum a certain way and now we have a teacher in Birmingham in fear of his life because he had the “audacity” to show his class a cartoon of the prophet Mohammed, and we see some very dangerous forces at work in some of our schools. That was my central point.

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7 hours ago, E I Addio said:

.......... and now we have a teacher in Birmingham in fear of his life because he had the “audacity” to show his class a cartoon of the prophet Mohammed, and we see some very dangerous forces at work in some of our schools. That was my central point.

What puzzles me is that the teaching unions have remained silent. Why is this? Because they have already judged him guilty of misconduct? Cowardice on their part?

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8 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I often ask myself why it was I did so badly at school and so well at college. I can only it it down to the quality of the teaching.Most of those at college at previously been in the business world , as I was by then and I was able to relate what I learned to the job I was doing. Looking back the teachers at school were hopelessly out of touch. All I can remember about maths lessons was at school was our teacher constantly ( it seemed ) ranting on about Harold Larwood  and the 1933 body line series , or our lefty geography teacher telling us it was completely unnecessary to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, then calling us all pathetic when we  had such poor exam results. It was a totally different attitude at college. So unless school life has changed dramatically I would agree teachers and teaching methods could do with a shake up. 
However, we have digressed a little from my main point which was the malevolent influence of Black Lives Matter and people like them . I absolutely don’t believe that teenagers have the ability to organise themselves in a sufficiently coherent way to effectively riot and burn flags etc unless a more mature ,person or persons are behind it. Most adults don’t have that ability that’s why trades unions were formed to fight for the working mans interests. Couple that with things like the so called Trojan horse in Birmingham where one group were trying to swing the curriculum a certain way and now we have a teacher in Birmingham in fear of his life because he had the “audacity” to show his class a cartoon of the prophet Mohammed, and we see some very dangerous forces at work in some of our schools. That was my central point.

Ironic of course, that you should complain about teachers ranting about Harold Larwood or the Hiroshima Bomb whilst not actually teaching you anything, yet don't question why a teacher should be showing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed instead of teaching his kids something. :rolleyes:

Whilst I'm all for free speech and teaching kids the value of it, I struggle to find any reason why a teacher should be using iconography that's known to be controversial and upset others. Why is there even any need to touch on religion at all, except to teach the basic principles and values of the major world religions (such as depiction of human beings is offensive in Islam)?

But if you want to turn it around, it could just as well be argued that teachers holding controversial opinions about Harry Larwood or Hiroshima were actually trying to teach you about the value of free speech, even if the lesson clearly wasn't learned in your case... :D

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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