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Interesting scenes in Paris last night..

The official says 'negru' which is black in Romanian so is identifying the Istanbul coach as 'the black guy'. I wouldn't say that's a racist comment, more ignorant/rude in the same way as calling someone 'the fat guy' or 'the disabled guy' etc

Also worth noting that someone on the Istanbul bench can clearly be heard in one clip saying 'In my country Romanians are Gypsies' which is just as bad yet has barely been mentioned. 

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Not saying it is right what happened, but just love the irony of a football club closely associated with Erdogan, who is killing off the Kurdish people, complaining about a nawty word.......

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8 hours ago, tellboy said:

The game that cost Utd was in Turkey.But to be honest when the draw was made i only expected Utd to finish 3rd anyway behind last years finalists and semi finalists.

Ole needs to field what he thinks is his best team and system and stick with it,not keep changing it week in week out.

Bloody Thursdays now,and i work Thursday evenings.Maybe a blessing in disguise:unsure:

Fielding three different left backs in 90 minutes tells a tale :rofl:

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3 hours ago, The Cheese said:

Interesting scenes in Paris last night..

The official says 'negru' which is black in Romanian so is identifying the Istanbul coach as 'the black guy'. I wouldn't say that's a racist comment, more ignorant/rude in the same way as calling someone 'the fat guy' or 'the disabled guy' etc

Also worth noting that someone on the Istanbul bench can clearly be heard in one clip saying 'In my country Romanians are Gypsies' which is just as bad yet has barely been mentioned. 

THE comments from John Barnes are most pertinent ... basically what else was he (fourth official) meant to say when pointing out the only black guy in a group of white people. Hardly racist ... 

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23 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

THE comments from John Barnes are most pertinent ... basically what else was he (fourth official) meant to say when pointing out the only black guy in a group of white people. Hardly racist ... 

 

It’s a difficult one, isn’t it?

Our generation sees no harm in using “black” as an identifying word for a person.

But the younger generation says we should not differentiate by colour - we literally shouldn’t see it - and therefore he should have used a different characteristic to identify him, a name or number, or just point or walk over to him

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36 minutes ago, DC2 said:

 

It’s a difficult one, isn’t it?

Our generation sees no harm in using “black” as an identifying word for a person.

But the younger generation says we should not differentiate by colour - we literally shouldn’t see it - and therefore he should have used a different characteristic to identify him, a name or number, or just point or walk over to him

Barnes also said that had the alleged offender been white in a group of black people the fourth official most likely would have said 'the white guy.' Racist?

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7 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

Barnes also said that had the alleged offender been white in a group of black people the fourth official most likely would have said 'the white guy.' Racist?

If we decide not to differentiate by colour, then, yes, racist.

As a society we need to know when we can refer to skin colour and when we can’t.

It’s certainly a problem that it creates an “us and them” attitude and racial stereotypes, especially when allowing skin colour to be referred to in crime, both the best justified and least justified time to use it.

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5 hours ago, The Cheese said:

Interesting scenes in Paris last night..

The official says 'negru' which is black in Romanian so is identifying the Istanbul coach as 'the black guy'. I wouldn't say that's a racist comment, more ignorant/rude in the same way as calling someone 'the fat guy' or 'the disabled guy' etc

Also worth noting that someone on the Istanbul bench can clearly be heard in one clip saying 'In my country Romanians are Gypsies' which is just as bad yet has barely been mentioned. 

It was a silly comment. Unfortunately language and culture across Europe is very different and all of our perceptions of what is and isn't acceptable are very different.

I agree with you that the comment from the Istanbul bench is just as bad.

2 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

THE comments from John Barnes are most pertinent ... basically what else was he (fourth official) meant to say when pointing out the only black guy in a group of white people. Hardly racist ... 

As DC2 has highlighted in his post, the official had more options than he realised if he stopped and thought about it.

It was definitely an instinctive spur of the moment comment that he said before he thought about it.

But i think when you have a Surname or given name on a shirt and a shirt number that is a weak excuse.

I accept that 4th officials sometimes struggle with shirt numbers for substitutes but i am fairly certain when that happens they refer to a programme, or Line up list

 

1 hour ago, DC2 said:

 

It’s a difficult one, isn’t it?

Our generation sees no harm in using “black” as an identifying word for a person.

But the younger generation says we should not differentiate by colour - we literally shouldn’t see it - and therefore he should have used a different characteristic to identify him, a name or number, or just point or walk over to him

Different generations and different backgrounds of people see things very differently. Football and society as a whole needs to continue to have an open, frank discussion about the topic. However i think we have got to a point from either perspective where people's opinions are not tolerated.

53 minutes ago, DC2 said:

If we decide not to differentiate by colour, then, yes, racist.

As a society we need to know when we can refer to skin colour and when we can’t.

It’s certainly a problem that it creates an “us and them” attitude and racial stereotypes, especially when allowing skin colour to be referred to in crime, both the best justified and least justified time to use it.

The whole issue is just creating further animosity not just in football but our society as a whole and i think in that sense lots of people are becoming far more intolerant to each others opinions.

Undoubtedly what is acceptable now and what is acceptable, in 10,20 or 50  years will be very different.

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9 minutes ago, CrystalCastles said:

It was a silly comment. Unfortunately language and culture across Europe is very different and all of our perceptions of what is and isn't acceptable are very different.

I agree with you that the comment from the Istanbul bench is just as bad.

As DC2 has highlighted in his post, the official had more options than he realised if he stopped and thought about it.

It was definitely an instinctive spur of the moment comment that he said before he thought about it.

But i think when you have a Surname or given name on a shirt and a shirt number that is a weak excuse.

I accept that 4th officials sometimes struggle with shirt numbers for substitutes but i am fairly certain when that happens they refer to a programme, or Line up list

 

Different generations and different backgrounds of people see things very differently. Football and society as a whole needs to continue to have an open, frank discussion about the topic. However i think we have got to a point from either perspective where people's opinions are not tolerated.

The whole issue is just creating further animosity not just in football but our society as a whole and i think in that sense lots of people are becoming far more intolerant to each others opinions.

Undoubtedly what is acceptable now and what is acceptable, in 10,20 or 50  years will be very different.

Certainly agree with that, this thread is a perfect example. B)

Back on track.   There is certainly more racism in everyday activities now from the Black movements actions since the death of George Floyd. Instead of getting rid of it, it has created division where it didn't used to be, and become more of an uncomfortable issue. It is now worse than it was was over a year ago.  

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24 minutes ago, CrystalCastles said:

But i think when you have a Surname or given name on a shirt and a shirt number that is a weak excuse.

Funny you should say that! A mate of mine (he's a fat white guy) was in a bar, wearing a shirt with the name "African American" on the back.

This woman in the bar was totally offended, and called him out on it. Then, everybody joined in - and explained to her that his name is actually "Charlie African American", and "African American" is not an uncommon surname in the US.

The problem is that people LOOK for a reason to be offended.

ADDENDUM: I was with Charlie one night, along with a black friend of ours. I got the three of us to pose for a photo, which I said would be labelled "Black, Brown, and African American"!

Edited by chunky
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1 minute ago, chunky said:

Funny you should say that! A mate of mine (he's a fat white guy) was in a bar, wearing a shirt with the name "African American" on the back.

This woman in the bar was totally offended, and called him out on it. Then, everybody joined in - and explained to her that his name is actually "Charlie African American", and "African American" is not an uncommon surname in the US.

The problem is that people LOOK for a reason to be offended.

ADDENDUM: I was with Charlie one night, along with a black friend of ours. I got the three of us to pose for a photo, which I said would be labelled "Black, Brown, and African American"!

THAT PROVES IT!

Charlie's surname is a four letter name, beginning with "C", and I'm not allowed to post it! As I said, it's a common name over here, yet it's being censored. The world gone mad...

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28 minutes ago, CrystalCastles said:

It was a silly comment. Unfortunately language and culture across Europe is very different and all of our perceptions of what is and isn't acceptable are very different.

I agree with you that the comment from the Istanbul bench is just as bad.

As DC2 has highlighted in his post, the official had more options than he realised if he stopped and thought about it.

It was definitely an instinctive spur of the moment comment that he said before he thought about it.

But i think when you have a Surname or given name on a shirt and a shirt number that is a weak excuse.

I accept that 4th officials sometimes struggle with shirt numbers for substitutes but i am fairly certain when that happens they refer to a programme, or Line up list

 

Different generations and different backgrounds of people see things very differently. Football and society as a whole needs to continue to have an open, frank discussion about the topic. However i think we have got to a point from either perspective where people's opinions are not tolerated.

The whole issue is just creating further animosity not just in football but our society as a whole and i think in that sense lots of people are becoming far more intolerant to each others opinions.

Undoubtedly what is acceptable now and what is acceptable, in 10,20 or 50  years will be very different.

JUST one point ... think the player he was referring to (Ba) was a sub and was well wrapped up on the touchline and could not be identified by his shirt.

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4 minutes ago, chunky said:

The problem is that people LOOK for a reason to be offended.

 

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21 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Certainly agree with that, this thread is a perfect example. B)

Back on track.   There is certainly more racism in everyday activities now from the Black movements actions since the death of George Floyd. Instead of getting rid of it, it has created division where it didn't used to be, and become more of an uncomfortable issue. It is now worse than it was was over a year ago.  

I think division has always been there in our society waiting for a point when it would bubble to the surface. We have failed to have an open and honest discussion about racism in the last few years, things have slipped and i think as a result the polarised extremes are both very vocal now.

We are lucky to live in the UK, to have football associations and at a wider level Sports authorities, that do so much to try and raise awareness and combat racism.

However i don't think we have a perfect system & as we have failed to actually deal with it,it's become much more of an uncomfortable issue. 

14 minutes ago, chunky said:

Funny you should say that! A mate of mine (he's a fat white guy) was in a bar, wearing a shirt with the name "African American" on the back.

This woman in the bar was totally offended, and called him out on it. Then, everybody joined in - and explained to her that his name is actually "Charlie African American", and "African American" is not an uncommon surname in the US.

The problem is that people LOOK for a reason to be offended.

ADDENDUM: I was with Charlie one night, along with a black friend of ours. I got the three of us to pose for a photo, which I said would be labelled "Black, Brown, and African American"!

Undoubtedly people do look for a reason to be offended, but who gets to decide what is or isn't offensive when people have vastly differing opinions.

As a collective Football and Society has to at some point define racism, and over time that definition will naturally evolve and change.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this case, as UEFA actually don't have a good track record of dealing with it.  

6 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

JUST one point ... think the player he was referring to (Ba) was a sub and was well wrapped up on the touchline and could not be identified by his shirt.

I hadn't seen the full video or the clip, so that is a very reasonable point

However if the official felt he couldn't identify who Demba Ba was because of that. Then a much better course of action would have been to have stopped and asked who it was.

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50 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

JUST one point ... think the player he was referring to (Ba) was a sub and was well wrapped up on the touchline and could not be identified by his shirt.

 

Just a guess, but wouldn’t the fourth official have known the names and numbers of the subs?

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