Jump to content
British Speedway Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Seymour Dix

F 1 Today's race

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The marshals actually seemed relatively slow to get there with fire extinguishers and turn them on the fire, although in fairness they may have had to get from their marshal post. It was the medical chase car that was on the scene first, with its driver getting there first with the extinguisher.

There was also some bloke in the back seat who seemed to casually get out, then suddenly only then notice the car was in flames, before going and getting another extinguisher out of the boot. :D

I was thought it was poor and dangerous design that a metal barrier should be protruding outwards into the potential path of a car, whether on the other side of the racing line or not. You can never underestimate where a car might end-up, especially in an open wheeled formula on a straight where it might clip another car at high speed.

Someone has slipped up on the track safety there IMO. 

Marshal running across the track when Perez`s car caught fire was worse.

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, racers and royals said:

Marshal running across the track when Perez`s car caught fire was worse.

Shades of Kyalami in 1977.

Share this post


Link to post

I think there'll be a lot of implications coming from this crash, let's face it, it was pure luck he managed to walk away from that, while you could say that all of the safety precautions worked, if the monocoque had stopped a few inches shorter and not gone through the fence as much as it did he would have literally been French Toast, if some of the armco had penetrated the gaps in the halo, almost certain death.

I can see the Indy Car Aeroscreen being introduced and airport style foam sprayers being placed around the circuit as the fire extinguishers were quite clearly inadequate, if it had happened at the end of the lap the medical car wouldn't have been there for a couple of minutes, marshalls wearing open face helmets, easy to fix.

As dangerous as F1 is, and you can easily forget about that with its recent safety record, nobody wants to sit down on a Sunday afternoon to watch somebody burn to death on their TV.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 12/2/2020 at 11:21 AM, iainb said:

I think there'll be a lot of implications coming from this crash, let's face it, it was pure luck he managed to walk away from that, while you could say that all of the safety precautions worked, if the monocoque had stopped a few inches shorter and not gone through the fence as much as it did he would have literally been French Toast, if some of the armco had penetrated the gaps in the halo, almost certain death.

I can see the Indy Car Aeroscreen being introduced and airport style foam sprayers being placed around the circuit as the fire extinguishers were quite clearly inadequate, if it had happened at the end of the lap the medical car wouldn't have been there for a couple of minutes, marshalls wearing open face helmets, easy to fix.

As dangerous as F1 is, and you can easily forget about that with its recent safety record, nobody wants to sit down on a Sunday afternoon to watch somebody burn to death on their TV.

Regarding the medical car, an AMG Mercedes of somesort that probably goes 300km/h... Cant really see it being MINUTES behind on a full lap at any circuit. Besides, I think it starts from the back of the grid for these situations and pulls out if lap 1 is ok.

It was pure miracle that Crashjean survived it. Still I think the track design was good on that part of the track regarding the barriers. 

Share this post


Link to post
27 minutes ago, f-s-p said:

Regarding the medical car, an AMG Mercedes of somesort that probably goes 300km/h... Cant really see it being MINUTES behind on a full lap at any circuit. Besides, I think it starts from the back of the grid for these situations and pulls out if lap 1 is ok.

It was pure miracle that Crashjean survived it. Still I think the track design was good on that part of the track regarding the barriers. 

I agree.

As far as the barriers, it is only a freak accident like this that would even be a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, f-s-p said:

Regarding the medical car, an AMG Mercedes of somesort that probably goes 300km/h... Cant really see it being MINUTES behind on a full lap at any circuit. Besides, I think it starts from the back of the grid for these situations and pulls out if lap 1 is ok.

You would have thought wouldn't you, but it took it around 20 to 30 seconds to turn up at Turn 3, so imagine how long it'd take to get to Turn 14 or the end of the lap at Spa or Singapore? When there's a fire blazing, seconds really do count, I can see a second medical car being introduced to pick the pack up at the half way point of a lap or something and maybe being stationed around the track

Edited by iainb
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, f-s-p said:

Still I think the track design was good on that part of the track regarding the barriers. 

I don't. 

I agree the barriers somewhat did their job in retarding the car in a non-fatal way, but you shouldn't have barriers protruding outwards like that on a straight. It was guarding an access road, but you shouldn't design things like that, especially on a blank canvas circuit. 

Share this post


Link to post
19 minutes ago, iainb said:

When there's a fire blazing, seconds really do count

It shouldn't really be down to the medical car to be putting out fires. That's the job of the marshals, and if they're taking too long to get there - as they did - then they need to re-think how many posts they need.

With respect to the 'slowness' of the medical car, there must be faster 'normal' cars available, but I guess they also need to be able to carry all the necessary medical gear and potentially have to carry a patient. So there's probably not much alternative if you need an estate vehicle unless you custom build one. 

Still, it's got to be better than a Fiat Tempra that was once used as the safety car... :rolleyes:

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

but you shouldn't have barriers protruding outwards like that on a straight.

It's against the direction from which the cars are coming, so it can't really be consider "protruding". It's no different to the the exit from the Hackney pits onto the track.

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, chunky said:

It's against the direction from which the cars are coming, so it can't really be consider "protruding". It's no different to the the exit from the Hackney pits onto the track.

It's angled out into the run-off area and actually comes fairly close to the track. It could be re-profiled in-line with the barrier that's behind it so there's an unobstructed run-off area, with the barrier behind angled back inwards to provide the track access. It would mean slightly re-routing the service road, but it looks like there's space to do it. 

I'm surprised the current configuration was approved, although it's on the other side of the track to the normal racing line so maybe it was felt unlikely a car would hit it at the angle that Grosjean did. However, straights are more unpredictable than corners because they're usually higher speed and you don't know which way cars will fly off and in what direction when hit. A flatter profile for the Armco wouldn't have necessarily prevented a car going through it, but the impact may well have been less. 

Hackney is not really a good example for setting safety standards, and I see they're already modified that wall for the GP this weekend. 

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

It's angled out into the run-off area and actually comes fairly close to the track. It could be re-profiled in-line with the barrier that's behind it so there's an unobstructed run-off area, with the barrier behind angled back inwards to provide the track access. It would mean slightly re-routing the service road, but it looks like there's space to do it. 

I'm surprised the current configuration was approved, although it's on the other side of the track to the normal racing line so maybe it was felt unlikely a car would hit it at the angle that Grosjean did. However, straights are more unpredictable than corners because they're usually higher speed and you don't know which way cars will fly off and in what direction when hit. A flatter profile for the Armco wouldn't have necessarily prevented a car going through it, but the impact may well have been less. 

Hackney is not really a good example for setting safety standards, and I see they're already modified that wall for the GP this weekend. 

To be fair it wasn't the fence that was the real issue at Hackney but the postioning of the lamp standards and/or supports.

Edited by steve roberts

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

To be fair it wasn't the fence that was the real issue at Hackney but the postioning of the lamp standards and/or supports.

Indeed, but a speedway bike weighing 80 kg and doing a maximum of 70 mph will have far less kinetic energy than an F1 car weighing 10 times as much and going 3 times faster. 

Share this post


Link to post
On 12/3/2020 at 5:42 PM, Humphrey Appleby said:

It shouldn't really be down to the medical car to be putting out fires. That's the job of the marshals, and if they're taking too long to get there - as they did - then they need to re-think how many posts they need.

Trouble is, whilst they've probably undergone fire training, it's usually in a classroom setting with no actual fire or sense of danger in sight. It doesn't matter how good the training is - it's down to how the person reacts in that scenario. You could have someone whose first real dealing with a fire is on the same day as their first course and manages to remain calm and do everything right, or someone with years of training who just freezes in the moment. 

I think they did a pretty good job, all told, but still would have been a different story if Grosjean himself hadn't managed to extricate himself from the wreck. 

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, June01 said:

Trouble is, whilst they've probably undergone fire training, it's usually in a classroom setting with no actual fire or sense of danger in sight. It doesn't matter how good the training is - it's down to how the person reacts in that scenario. You could have someone whose first real dealing with a fire is on the same day as their first course and manages to remain calm and do everything right, or someone with years of training who just freezes in the moment. 

I think they did a pretty good job, all told, but still would have been a different story if Grosjean himself hadn't managed to extricate himself from the wreck. 

F1 marshals will generally be experienced, and in fact I think they even fly them from places like the UK into venues where there's not much motorsport. Whether COVID has changed that I don't know though.

I suspect the delay in getting to the fire in Bahrain was just simply the distance from the nearest marshal post. But it was lucky the medical car got there first and also that Grosjean managed to extricate himself.

Even then, he still got some burns which shows the importance of timely intervention.

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I suspect the delay in getting to the fire in Bahrain was just simply the distance from the nearest marshal post. But it was lucky the medical car got there first and also that Grosjean managed to extricate himself.

Even then, he still got some burns which shows the importance of timely intervention.

 

From what I have seen, the nearest marshal post was actually VERY close to where he hit the fence...The first marshal on the scene actually had to run back from the impact site to avoid being included in the accident and grab an extinguisher, but didn't come back with anything useful.

I'm not sure if that was because the options he had were useless or if the obvious panic of such a situation caused him to choose the wrong option.

Even when the guy from the other side of the track got there with a useful extinguisher, he seemed to fumble the release mechanism until the medical team in the car arrived to help him, so there was a delay in getting the extinguisher onto the area that Romain was in....and if Romain had been properly stuck in the car, he was toast. Those hand held extinguishers were never going to save him if he was genuinely trapped in the car.

I know that they have done a great job in avoiding a fuel fire like that, and it hasn't happened decades, but if F1 wants to properly consider how to keep drivers safe, they really need to think about getting proper fire suppression systems all the way around the tracks...And by that I mean a piped system to each marshal post which allows the marshals to take a high pressure fire suppresion system to the scene of a crash like we saw last weekend.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Privacy Policy