g13webb

I don't think Middlo done himself any favours the other night, judging by some of the decisions he made . To most people it was an ideal opportunity to include Worrall in his first international. Racing the NA most week would have used the good grounding and I am in no doubt he would have done well in this class field. But you elected to use Kennett and then sub him after one pathetic ride. He rode that race like a novice, but even he deserved the benefit of another go. The competition the other night was not about Denmark, they were always going to win, it was about beating Sweden and USA. To have use all your eggs by heat 7 is not my idea of a good manager. As it happened the competition was poor and we progressed through, but that was more to do with luck then the decision made by our management. I feel it was an opportunity missed and riders like Worrall would have benefitted big time. Also, I thought Cook equipped himself pretty good . he was not outclassed and I can understand his frustration of being dropped . I don't think his replacements will fear much better, after all we're not talking about a Michael Lee or a Peter Collins just a pair of the same PL standard riders.. And to think, we once had more class riders then all the other nations put together. How times has changed

Since when have the BSPA made the right decisions. I find all this talk of, this rider, or that rider, all quite tiresome and irrelevant . The bottom line is we are just not good enough. We don't encourage, development, we have no youth development or put any importance in a program of such. , we give no help at all and riders like Lambert has had to go abroad. We don't deserve success. If it wasn't for the other countries misfortunes, we wouldn't be in with a shout of sneaking in the back door. and until things change we will always be that way...

I too were not impressed with the track, it seemed the fastest bike always won. When someone like Darcy Ward misses the gate and can't make it up then there must be something wrong. Darcy is probably the most skilful of riders yet he was always struggling coming from the back and if he cant do then what chance has people like Watt and Doyle got. ?? Probably this is what people like too see, but I enjoyed the EESG match last Friday far more when you required SKILL and SPEED to succeed.

Sidney, 1981 was a great meeting. Like you I went to many Wembley finals and yes some were poor meetings with little racing. But 1981 was special. Bruce Penhall, Ole Olsen, Knutsen, Gundersen, Jessup Carter all figured in exciting races, far better then we saw last night. I think that final will be the one that I will always remember......... 90,000 people ( Full House) watching speedway as it should be ....brilliant, unforgetable meeting.... The Buzz from the crowd when Penhal went by Olsen will live with me forever.....

Having appreciated your two previous posts, explaining the track situation, But you now lose all that credibility by the comments made in the post above. You come across as a BSI spokesperson rather then the editor of the SS. You say ask Emil for his comment on the track, but lets ask everyone else for their opinion. and the cencus will tell you it was rubbish. Their were a lot of plus factors, the Occasion, the atmoshpere, the quality of the crowd, But don't lets kid ourselves, the track was dire, elliminating any chance of good racing. The BSI messed up big time, and you trying to put some justification to it, belittles any contribution you may give.........

I was another, who questioned his inclusion into the SGP and feel he was only included because of his nationality rather his ability. I believe there were many other riders who were better then Woffy. But give the man his due. he has taken the opportunity and really performed up there with the best. I always thought he was a decent rider but not world class. Its amazing how much he has improved in a year. Keep it up son. Its wonderful to have a British rider on the top step, and for the world to listen to the National Anthem.

Probably alone in my views, but , in life, when something is given it is appreciated far less then had it been earn't. The fact that it was Bomber Harris, who was been given a Cardiff slot is irrelevant . The fact that any rider that was chosen, will have little bearing on the Cardiff SGP, all it has done is devalued the British Championship even more then it already is. When compared with other countries, our national standard is a joke. The meeting on Monday was contested by the few top riders we have, the rest was made up by riders from the lower league. For the British Champs to have some substance and purpose, it needed that qualification to matter............ sadly it was taken away......

I feel no list of the past great riders would be complete without the inclusion of TERRY BETTS. He was a wonderful captain and a brilliant ambassador of our sport. Had time for everyone and gave 110% each time he rode. He was never a World Champion, but he never let you down. He would ride round in that comfortable style he had and would always be relied to get double figures. A truly wonderful Team man. Probably, if it was possible to actually look at his heart, you would see it is the shape of the Kings Lynn 's STAR...

Greatly impressed with the new design of SS. Am I right in thinking that every SGP will be published like this.... Hope so!!

With everything considered, I thought it was a thoroughly enjoyable meeting. The track had it's faults, the start positions were well bias, but I thought for the first round of the SGP, it was well worth watching.. The commentary was class, making the meeting even more exciting then it was perceived. Brilliant, Can't wait for next round.

Firstly, I would like to apologise, for having the audacity of voicing an opinion that differs to yours. I wasn’t aware that you have this sole given right to Judge, Mimic and chastise other opinions. You also have been given the ability of inventing comments, which others were supposed to have said, purposely for your own gratification. What a unique specimen you are. Fortunately, I was brought up different to that. I was taught to give everyone respect. To treat everyone the same. Treat them with dignity that you would want to be treated yourself. You obviously have different beliefs then I do. So I will answer your accusations, but after that, I will reframe from any converse with you or Oldace. I come on the forum for enjoyment, for discussions, for information, not to be insulted by couple of nobodies. Firstly going back to the post No130. In my opinion I thought Simmo was a better rider then Scotty Nicholls, this is no adverse comment on Scotty, I actually rate him. But I thought Simmo was better. Now, if in your warp mind, that is wrong, then tough. Just because your opinion differs it doesn’t make it right or wrong. OK! Reading your posts you go on and on about averages as if they are the most important thing ever. They are purely a chart, which is manufestered to identify the difference, between riders in a given period of time, (i.e: 1season). But in your world, it is the only identity of class. But like I said, there are other ways to witness the quality of rider. Last year we had MJJ and Magic Janowski, both riding on a 6 point average, and your telling me they’re not world class riders, Dream ON !! You persistently rubbish the 13-heat format, this format was about for 40 odd years. It was recognised the world over. It worked, and the speedway supporters felt at home with all its rules and regulations. You have this perception, that just because the top riders today (No.1 rider) has to meet his opposite number, probably 3 times, then it is more difficult then what it use to be. But you are missing the point here. Whereas, once all the heat leaders were quality riders and any heats was deemed to be difficult, Now, because the quality has diminished, we have to have nominated heats solely to get the few top riders left, racing each other, more often. So yes, it is because of this the averages of the top rides will drop somewhat. But if it is seen harder for the top riders, by the same standard it is therefore easier for the lower riders to achieve a higher average, as the top riders are busy racing each other. So in your view you must be getting a false impression of the lower riders, thinking they are better then they actually are. Yeah! …. I’ve never said it was easier, I said it was different. Now we go to Post 172. Here we have a classic, never before have these clubs been mentions, but now you bring them in to the discussion making out things I had said. If you actually believe, that had we used the 15 ht format years these clubs wouldn’t have close, your more dumb then I credited you for. These clubs closed for financial implications, probably they took the easy option, probably they made a quick buck, and probably the supporter didn’t want to go. Whatever the reason it cannot be blamed on the 13 heat format.. The last paragraph sez it all. They say sarcasium is the lowest for of wit. I think that sums you up perfectly. The only scandal on here is the fact you are allow to give the amount abuse you do. Good Bye.........

Like I said, I don't wish to be synical, and i hope i haven't affended anyone. but i feel you are trying to push your views across to others using bias examples and calling them facts. Opinions will always differ, that what democracy is all about. But some people need to have more strength in their own convictions rather then be led by others....

He was the man who set the bench mark. Totally professional in everything he did. A lot of today's riders need to learn from this great man. 30 yrs. gone and still the greatest ever. Hopefully you'll have a happy retirement and enjoy the rest of your life. Thanks for the memories....

Wonderful, Its took loads of posts, pages of rubbish and we now have an announcement of what I actually said in the beginning.

Please don't talk to me as though I'm thick, I don't know why you're having your three pennies worth in a discussion anyway. The goal posts have moved on each posting. This thread was about preferred formats, 13 or 15. It was Bwitcher who brought in points and averages. All my posts were talking about the British League, past and present, But Bwitcher keeps putting in these silly comments, and belittling riders from the past. We even had posts saying that MJJ only score6.5 because of the league quality, The goalposts are now move to incorporate the Poland and Swedish leagues. And you have the cheek to question my maths. (I have a degree in advance mathematic). So rather then carry on with this pointless discussion I will bid you farewell before you move the goalposts again....... I think if you look back at my post I referred to a period of the late 60's 70's and 80's . Never once did I mention Briggs, and any reference to riders was in reply to the generalization remark from Bwitcher, belittling riders from the past... Probably it is you who should be more particular.......

I thought we had established you cant look at figures in accessing a riders ability, and any comparison is based on actual achievements, whatever the era. But Bwitcher insists on putting riders down because we only have 10 teams now compared with 20 in the past. What he fails to realise is when we had 20 teams in the league we had twice as many class riders. 20 No.1's etc, and 60 heat leaders. so whatever points they score was well earned. Sure there were also 40 reserve riders in a pool of say 150 riders, that's twice as many as today. To me its irrelevant what their averages were, because they mean nothing when comparing different eras. I know that once we were able to see the best riders in the world, but now we are privilege to see only a few.. and that speaks volumes when talking about quality.....[/b]

So what your actually saying is Peter Collins weren't that good; Ole Olsen was a flash in the pan, Eric Gundersen was just another rider, Hans Neilsen weren't that special and if those riders rode today they would be also-rans.......... GET REAL

I agree, what a strange comment to make, no it is not possible for riders of different era's to race against each other, but SIDNEY,s opinion is a valid as yours, after all, they are only individual perceptions and not actual facts. What would be interesting is for the posters to vote on an all-time TOP TWENTY riders of all time and see what percentage of people thought who were actually the best and see what era the majority of top riders came from...... For starters , in MY opinion, Ivan Mauger was the greatest rider of all time, he wasn't someone I warm too, but sheer class personified....

We could get into a totally new discussion here talking about certain polish riders.. MJJ is a class riders, and yes he could perform well on the worlds stage, the fact he average only 6.5 last year had nothing to do with the league competition, purely on his attitude of racing over here. A truer reflection on his ability would easily push him near the 9 mark. Same could be said about Magic Janowski. A truly incredible rider, who would either, be out of this world taking the like of Lindgren and Holder from the back or would be useless riding around with no intent at all. The fact they are both on ridiculously low average has nothing to do with the standard of the present league as you put it.

Having worked with figures all my life I am well aware of the problems when trying to compare different charts and tables. More often the not the criteria was different and therefore any comparison would be incorrect. All the charts and tables can tell you is how the riders performed in comparison to other in that specific year. When I referred to 'Class' riders, my ideas would reflect their quality rather then the average they achieved. My idea of a class rider would be someone who performed well on the world stage, contested the world final, or represented their country, not simply but scoring a certain average.....

The only way to explain the warp reality that some of you have is to remind everyone that in the late 60's, 70's and 80's all worlds top riders rode in the British League. that's the equivalent of all the SGP riders, all the SGP qualifier riders, and all the world under 21 riders, riding here every week. It didn't matter where they come from, if they were good enough and wanted to be winners then they rode in the British league. Today we only have a sprinkling of the worlds best, so any comparisons made of today's era, to that pre-mentioned falls well short. It's like comparing the Champions league to the 2nd Division. This is not a criticism of the riders such as Holder, Ward, Iversen , merely an explanation of the differences of the number of quality riders....

That's debatable who was the fool. Your opinion of the 13 heat formula is blinded by the fact that, because the No 1 only met each other once, then their averages was therefore higher. But the 13 heat formula was different in so many other ways. As you say the No.1 only met the opposite No1 in the first heat, but he rode against the other heat leaders twice, which was just as difficult in them days. When teams has 3 class heat leaders they had the choice of race positions and team managers sometime rotated them depending on the opposition. I remember Mike Lee always rode at 5, purely so he would race against and usually beat the opposing No 1 twice. When we talk about class riders, back in the 70's all the world's top 50 riders rode in our league, now we have probably only 10. So your perception of that class now based purely on the race format is somewhat miss leading. The 13 and 15 heats formulas are different in so many ways. which is best, will always be debatable, but when it come to the amount of class riders we had, then the 70's era and the 13 heat format wins hands down....

As an oldie, I liked the 13 heats and the second half's. But speedway is different now. Where in the past the 13 heat formula worked was because the riders had pride and wanted to win every race. Sure they divided the spoils, but they all wanted to win. We talk about the No1's only meeting each once, but then each team had more better riders. There were 3 heat leaders and most were seasoned internationals. We at Lynn Betts at 1, Simmo at 3, Cole at 5 plus Phil Crump as a second string. Did it matter if Bettsy only rode against the other No 1 once, no cause it didn't. The teams were far stronger then and that's the reason it worked. Now its a different ball game. I've got no problems with the 15 heat format, my gripe is, I would like to see more races for my money and for the night to last longer. I don't like going home early.......

I believe we at Kings Lynn benefit from everything that is good for the sport. Having the Stadium owned by Buster, we don't have to pay for Car Parking, The admission prices are kept to a minimum, the programs is only £2.00 a time, and all the money spent at the bar and shops all go into the business. Buster is very astute and runs a tight ship. But he knows that running a viable operation is of paramount importance. So when we talk about the ability to run the sport on a professional basis, it must be far more difficult to make ends meet for those promoters who rent their stadium and don't have the same luxury a we do at Lynn. What I'm trying to say is, although the numbers of supporters are encouraging, with all them benefits, we at Lynn are not overrun with enthusiasm from the supporters, so it must be doubly hard for those club,s where the costs are higher and the average supporting numbers are lower. Oh for a Magic solution.......

Pretty good assessment, but I think your a bit harsh On Lindgren and Kasprzak. Think they should have been Improvers & Unpredictables.