E I Addio

In your efforts to appear cleverer than the rest and present the BSPA as total fools it is yourself you have made look foolish. The BSPA have announced a package of measures which are inter -dependent and have to be looked at as a whole, not individually. Lets have a look at some of these "half-arsed ideas at the drop of a hat".- 1. Sticking with riders who are prepared to commit to a full season of British Speedway rather than disappearing off to continental meetings as and when it suits them. What a half -arsed idea that is. Everybody knows how much the fans want to see r/r and guests as often as possible. 2. Increasing the league programme from 28 meetings to 36 , so those riders committed to British Speedway can earn reasonable living. I can see why you are against that half -arsed idea. And of course all the EL fans think 14 home matches was too many anyway didn't they.? As for it being made up at the drop of a hat, sorry to disappoint you but Jon Cook announced last July that he and his fellow promoters were looking at ways of increasing the number of meetings in 2014.But of course you wouldn't know that would you ?Ignoring the facts makes it easier to make dumb comments about the ideas being at the drop of a hat. 3.In increasing the number of fixtures it is necessary to reduce the cost per meeting. If people like Bob Dugard are losing £70k per 14 meetings then 18 meetings will lose him £90k unless costs are reduced, To any thinking person it must be reasonably obvious that these have been necessary measures to take. Never mind about past mistakes that got us into this situation, this is where we are now and this is what is being addressed. Are you with me so far ? I doubt it but lets continue . 4.A key element in cutting costs per meeting and trying to bring the long term stability of a good supply of British riders is the fast tracking idea. Yes I know that something could have been done years ago but it wasn't, and I now the NL boys could go through the PL route but that wouldn't save EL costs so what we have is the only show in town, if the whole package is going to work. Stick to the PL if that's what makes you happy, but to strand on the side lines and make silly comments about the quality of BSPA press releases only makes you look silly. The post AGM press releases have been like that for years. Nothing new there but what you fail to understand is that the press releases are the least of our problems right now. The immediate issue is getting a full league programme in 2014 without any more clubs going under and at least something is being done to turn the corner. When or the day comes when the most important topic is the quality of BSPA press releases most us will be happy to debate it,. Of course you could always attend Jon Cooks forum next Friday and tell him how half-arsed and at the drop of a hat it all is but somehow I doubt that you will. I see Tsunami has already dealt with your crass comments about the reason Neil Machin has sold up.

OK. To put it as succinctly as I can, it seems to me British Speedway needs to achieve three things in order to survive :- 1. To keep losses to a sustainable level so no more clubs go out of business. None of us have access to the accounts but with the exception of Peterborough we presume that the fact all the rest are running, suggests they all think they can make a go of it, so hopefully we are over the first hurdle, otherwise its simply no promoters= no speedway. 2. We need a better league programme than 28 meetings partly because experience has showed that with a mere 14 home meetings a number of fans drift off into other interests, and partly because riders like Craig Cook who don't yet have jobs abroad need to earn a decent living in the top league and not spend half their lives doubling up. We are promised 36 EL fixtures, which sounds like an improvement to me, so I would think most people are reasonably happy up to this point. Now comes the controversial bit. 3.There needs to be a steady supply of British riders so that in the long-term future we don't have to incur the massive cost of bringing foreign riders over, and we don't slip back to the pattern of clubs incurring massive debt as in recent years. Personally I don't particularly want to see two NL races in an EL meeting but unlike some on here I recognise that speedway doesn't exist just for me , it exists for all fans at all clubs so if that's what it takes to achieve points 1&2 above then I'll get behind it and support it. Of course, the devil is in the detail and their are some answered questions that need to be sorted, but personally I am not to fussed about that at this stage. Jon Cook is meeting Lakeside supporters n Friday and he will be filling in the details and answering questions. No doubt other promotions will be doing similar things in the course of time. Those who genuinely want answers can attend these things. Yes ,I know it would be nice if all the implications had been published already but the reality is that the season doesn't start for another 5 months so personally I can't get too wound up about the detail at this stage. No doubt more will be revealed When Cookie delivers his discourse, on Friday,.

So basically you are he only one that has thought it through and you must be right because you say so ? I think it is pretty clear to all except those who will never be satisfied, that there are a lot of details yet to be filled in, possibly with some fine tuning /modifications needed. There are probably more questions than answers at the moment, but surely it makes more sense to wait for the complete picture, and certainly it would be daft IMO not to wait and see what Jon Cook has to say next Friday before jumping to conclusions. As has already been said we have got an increased home league programme, up from 14 meetings t0 18. We have got rid of the ridiculous system of facing some teams twice and some teams once, and we have a system for fast tracking young talent for which all details are not yet clear. These are all things that people have been demanding on here for years. We couldn't stay where we were. We are not yet where we need to be but a step has been taken in the right direction. The full picture has yet to evolve but I am amazed that the usual suspects are prepared to condemn it on the basis of relatively limited information.

On the other hand it doesn't make him any less of an expert than you. Unless you have a crystal ball I am not sure why your opinions which you have set out so dogmatically should carry any more weight than Tai's,

Except that Christer wasn't the top man. Olle Nygren was.

Spot on. My views entirely. Add to that the fact that we are now rid of the ridiculous system of meeting some teams once and some teams twice, although none of the moaners have applauded that. In a perfect world I would rather not have NL reserves ride in EL teams but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where clubs like Eastbourne were losing over £9 on every punter that walked though the turnstiles. In Peterborough's case it was nearly £10 lost per customer per meeting. Several others, including 2 of the 4 play-off finalists were losing big money. We clearly couldn't go on like that. The starting point for me is the if we didn't get more regular league meetings the sport would die anyway . That issue has been addressed. Having increased the number of meetings , costs clearly had to be cut. If some clubs were losing unsustainable sums in 14 meetings there is no point in increasing the losses by increasing the number of meetings without cutting the cost per meeting, and that's what they have done. We are where we are not where we would like to be. This could be the start of the long road back to where we want to be, but I think we should at least wait and see what the team sheets look like and how the season starts to pan out before passing judgment.

Wrong. Every year the riders get fixed up in Poland first, Sweden second and UK third because that's where the money is and that's where the sponsorship is, and if you doubled the UK points it would still be the same because the money abroad d is so much better.

To put the t/r rule in its proper context and to give it the importance it deserves they should do away with the black and white helmet and the rider on the t/r should come out in a clowns outfit with a red nose and riding a unicycle. I f that doesnt' work just give up and abolish the rule completely.

Whats wrong with "Ethnic Minority Jacks and Jills" you bigoted misogynist?

Lees previous convictions are in the public domain. Most speedway fans know about them anyway and its highly unlikely that a non-speedway fan will be looking on here. The jury system is very robust and you can't stop others talking about a case. Nobody is suggesting he has any relevant previous history of similar offences/

Load of bunkum being posted by the barrack-room lawyers on here Nobody has posted any facts that prejudice the case. If they do the mods will remove them. Until then we have freedom of speech in this country and are entitled to discuss the fact that it is indeed an unhappy episode in his life, and there have been other unhappy episodes, none of which are relevant to this case and therefore discussing them doesn't prejudice it.

Good. Everybody's happy then. :approve: Better close the thread now before sidney turns up and starts rocking the boat

Yep, you have got it wrong. Their was no great speech involved, and never was. Having got to the stage of having come to virtual agreement with bigcatdiary, which is very rare for the two us, I guess that if me and bigcat agree on something we must be right so I'll have to leave others who have difficulty following the line of discussion on the thread to talk amongst yourselves. Post number 48 pretty much sums up the situation, as I have already said. If anyone disagrees with that post then I can't help them any further. Time to move on.

That post is so stupid it doesn't warrant a reply.

At the risk of repeating myself the SCB had it listed for discussion on 10th July, but that is the last thing the public were told, so we don't know what happened. Not sure if you are trying to draw a distinction between "discussion" and "inquiry" but Lakeside previously asked the SCB to hold an inquiry into the cheating allegations against Poole in 2009 and a fat lot of good that turned out to be. It didn't take a request for an inquiry when Poole were on the sharp end of a cancellation by Belle Vue. They had someone down there the same day and the whole thing was done and dusted in about two weeks. That really sums the whole thing up. When the SCB want to act can get it done on no time flat, when it suits them to do otherwise, nothing happens.

I don't know if it has escaped your notice, but my comment was about the cancellation of the Poole-v- Lakeside meeting, which was in 2013, the Cov/Peterboro walk out was in 2010. Bit difficult to discuss these things when you are confusing different dates. If you are talking about the 2013 AGM Cook has already said certain issues will be raised and for all you or I know Lakeside and Boro might be working together. it would certainly be in their joint interests to, as they have both been stitched up this year and Cook and Frost seem to get on very well these days. We shall have to wait and see Then the differences between our respective points of view now are so minimal it would be splitting hairs to continue arguing about it. So many clubs are losing big money they are going to have discuss things more important than helmet colours etc, because if they don't their will be a number of clubs not running next year, in all the leagues. I think this is the closest we have ever been to complete agreement on a topic, which is a nice change

Whatever you think or don't think about Lakesides behaviour (and lets face it without information none of know all the facts) the fact remains that its a symptom of an inherently faulty system). Belle Vue have a dodgy pipe burst and the SCB have someone down there immediately. Kings Lynn call a meeting off three days in advance on the basically implausible excuse that they didn't think that their electricians could change a fuse in three days and the SCB didn't bother to ask why. It beggars belief to think that they wouldn't have been able to fix it the same day if it was the SWC or GP challenge that was about to take place. Then we have Peterborough cancelling a match because, if the press release is to be believed Trevor Swales is so dumb he asked "someone from Sky" rather than the SCB to clarify if he could have a facility for Kenny Bjerre. Whoever it was he spoke to ( Terry Russell we have since been told) said it "should" be OK but the SCB said it wasn't so we have another unnecessary postponement. And all that is before we get to the shambles of who did or didn't use illegal riders, and riders not being paid by some clubs despite the SCB being told when the captains signed the team sheets off.. I realise it suits some peoples agenda ( and it certainly suits bigcatdiary's agenda) to hang everything on Lakeside but its clear that flippant cancellations go much deeper than Poole-v- Lakeside but what exactly are Lakeside supposed to have done? Write to the Daily Mail ? Remember that in 2009 it was Lakeside that asked the SCB to investigate the allegations of Poole cheating and that was a complete waste of time. e know the SCB were supposed to be looking into the matter on their meeting of 10th July but nothing has been heard since. How do you know know the stories about Poole being fined are not true ? The fact that unless you have some inside information yourself you know no more than the rest of us. That is the point. Once again complete silence from the SCB is the root of the problem. Peterborough have said very little about the Kings Lynn appeal leaking out on the crucial day of the Belle Vue Poole match, and very little about Swindon taking their assets. Is that because they took it lying down or is it possible that Rick Frost has learned a thing or two since 2010 and now knows there is more than one way to skin a cat ? Bottom line is that the SCB is the ruling body of the sport and as far as maladministration is concerned al roads lead back to them.

It was being run in a shambolic way before that. The point that Stuart Douglas was making in his Speedway Star interview just before the AGM was that the sport was being run on a poor business model and it is the business model that had to change, not cutting the number of meetings. He said, logically, in my view that if you halve the number of meetings you halve your losses but you still have a bad business model. Unforunately the majority of promoters, in their wisdom decided to save costs by cutting the number of meetings but to stick to the same old bad business model so they still have big losses. I can't recite all the ins and outs of a three page SS interview plus various programme notes but logically its no good cutting costs if you still have a format that is losing big money thus we still have clubs like Swindon Brum and Belle Vue struggling to pay the bills and Peterborough only surviving on the generosity of decent owner. Whether of not the winters changes will bring about a better business model remains to be seen but I'm not holding my breath.

Spot on.That's the point I was trying to make earlier and which Halifaxtiger has already touched on. Unless we get clear statements from The SCB given a few facts relevant to their decisions there will always be a mixture of fact, fiction, gossip and speculation being discussed and that leads top disharmony in the sport especially amongst the paying public and that ot not a good thing. According to them, money forced them. They said they couldn't sustain the costs likely to be incurred under the proposed higher points limit on the crowds they were getting in.

As said before we can argue for ever and a day and it won't change opinions now. Boro and Cov at that stage had financial support from their owners, BV and Eastie were (and still relatively are) at the budget end of the market. Nobody forced Cov or Boro to buy/sign riders before the rules were finalised at the AGM, but that's water under the Bridge now. The sport didn't get into its present state simply because of 2010. The point of the thread is that we have exactly the same situation today that was being complained of by the promoters in May 2009. If you and others are of the opinion that its all down to what happened in the winter of discontent, fair enough, but personally I think the sports problems are much wider and deeper than that, and that the buck stops with the SCB. The SCB didn't want to rock the boat over the Poole cheating claims in 2009 and don't want to rock the boat in 2013, once again in matters that seem to involve Poole. The big question is why is the SCB, the sports ruling body, so secretive and so inept.

Belle Vue and Eastbourne said they would go under if they had to build to a 45 point limit so if that measure was passed they would have to leave the league. You call those clubs mug promoters but they know better than you how their income stacks up against their outgoings. You have only got to look at the crowds Eastbourne and BV were getting at that time to see they would have difficulty building with quality riders to 45 points. They struggled enough at 42. Fair enough your opinion that its only those who sided against Cov and Peterborough are completely to blame, as you put it for the continued deterioration in the sport and the League but my view is that the SCB bear a massive responsibility as well. we will have to agree to differ on the SCB's culpability in all this.

That is the point. We don't know what they have done because we are not old. We were told via Speedway Star that the Poole -v- Lakeside cancellation was going to be discussed by the SCB on 10th July and since then we have been told nothing. We have not even been told if that actually discussed it as planned or adjourned to another date. Then we have the Kings Lynn -v Peterborough appeal seeping out on the day of the Bellevue-v- Poole meeting and people are bound to think the worst. The whole thing gives the impression of being a big stitch-up and conspiracy. I am not saying it is a stitch-up but that's how it looks from a distance. The SCB could kill all this speculation by a few press releases on their website keeping the fans informed, and it is that lack of information, more than anything else that is sending the sport downhill.

There were lots of issues swirling around at that time. Stuart Douglas set out his position in an interview with SS in November 2010 but a number of clubs didn't want to listen to his ideas for stopping spiralling costs and the result is clubs now making bigger losses so we look like losing a lot of top riders in 2014 which is the very thing Duggo was trying to avoid if you read the article. Also when Cook and Douglas were calling for an independent body in May 2010, 6 months before the AGM Trump and Frost never came out at that stage and said "Yeah, great idea", it was only when it suited their purpose they started on about it. We can argue until the cows come home on the rights and wrongs of the winter of discontent, but nobody is going to change their opinion on it at this late stage. I am not saying that Cook, Douglas or anyone else is whiter than white. The issue that collectively the promoters have the sport in exactly the same position that two of their number were complaining about nearly 4 years ago. There may or may not be reasons why their cannot be an independent body, but there is no reason why there should be the "wall of silence" from the SCB that was being complained about. This is what really annoys me. The SCB are the body delegated by the ACU to have authority over the sport. On vitually every issue the fans are treated with the "wall of silence". Nothing is every explained, nothing ever clarified.It leads to speculation, some it accurate, some not so accurate, and fans be kept in the dark are leaving the sport. It would cost no more money and no more effort for the SCB to be more forthcoming and it would do a lot of good, but it never happens. It just leads me to wonder, who is it at the SCB, or who has control over the SCB that is responsible for this wall of silence?

Difficult to disagree with that.