moxey63

Or could be because it's live on TV?

Are Peterborough folk only allowed out on Fridays?

It is amazing just how childish people slump to when speedway is questioned is a negative way. We are all different and want different things most of the time. But there always has to be a heated discussion, a one-upmanship on another poster. We are all, afterall, speedway people. We wouldn't argue for the sake of it if we were stood on the terraces together, but a keyboard broadens some of the posters' shoulders on the internet, not just speedway forums, and makes them turn into a drunk out on the town at the weekend. I say last night's match wasn't that good, someone comes back and says it was better than a meeting I had mentioned as being good racing. Someone uploads the facts of how many passes there were in the meeting I enjoyed, and the person originally questioning my taste pulls it the chaps work apart because he typed in a wrong number! Remember folks, we aren't perfect... we are speedway fans afterall, follwoing a sport that is far from being perfect. Right... I'll stand back and wait the next punch being delivered...

Perhaps we all expect a different type of entertainment standard/level as our lives progress. I can tell the difference of the level and effort of racing in the GPs and the European Championship compared to the Elite League. Last night there was nothing really - last race apart - that would persuade me to attend a domestic match. It is about personal taste I suppose... but, judging by the Peterborough crowd, I am guessing I am not alone in my thinking of the standard of racing and entertainment offered in today's domestic speedway. I speak with a friend (yes I have one) after each meeting on television and it's amazing how our opinions vary on the entertainment of racing offered each meeting. Sometimes I find it hard that he thinks was a boring match and I think was totally opposite, or I think was snoozey and he thinks worth re-watching.

Having spent part of the evening watching real entertainment from Manchester City v Newcastle football match, I made the mistake to round off the evening by playing the recorded speedway from tonight. Yet again it was another bore, causing my jaw to almost lock through the yawning it did... and that's despite fast forwarding through most of it. The last race was great, but how are Peterborough managing to run with crowds that low? No wonder SKY are ready for the kill-off.

You have to be realistic. Speedway is a second or third sort of income for many "promoters." They are tired at the end of the day having put countless hours into their proper businesses and speedway suffers. In an ideal world promoters would be able to afford to pay somebody to run the club - full time or part time - and pump up the promotional side of things. For too long speedway has relied on a band of helpers who aren't professionals, and the product is sinking under the weight of it. Too many people do things for the love of speedway. There isn't the money in the sport to pay for full-time pro's, even with what SKY gave, and perhaps we all should begin to realise this and stop pretending we can afford to pay riders as much. Some say the riders are now professionals and must be paid so... I say speedway cannot afford them.

Oh dear, wait until you hear Father Crimbo doesn't really exist. The Sunday People ran a host of stories in the mid-eighties that damaged speedway's reputation, a few teammates giving a few tyres in world championship meetings... and it caused irreparable damage when people actually used to care. I remember the piece featured on New At Ten, it was that much of a headline, and people in the pub I was in (I remember two guys stopped playing snooker to listen) were really interested in the item. Now, 30 years down the line, speedway fans deny it still happens... despite seeing riders slowing in world championship meetings to give their team an advantage. I have proof, cos I seen it with my own eyes. I don't have dates, times or names... but do you have proof it doesn't happen. It's the blinkered view, similar to those sad individuals who, say, follow Irish crooner Denial O' Donnell on every date he does, under the illusion everything he does is bloody wonderful and not believing for one moment he farts like the rest of us, or, he does but it smells like freshly cut grass. Of course I can't supply a full list of when it happened... I am not daft enough to go that far, and that's why we differ. Even if I told you I had concrete evidence you wouldn't believe it. You see what you want to, believe what makes you feel comfy. I saw something suspicious in the World Cup, I'm sure of that. I am sure other fans have seen suspicious things which, as they have happened in the past, make them ok to be happening today. I have my views, you have yours. I deal in what I see, digest it over time and use my knowledge when I suspect something smelly may be happening. It is life, not just speedway. You, on the other hand, may believe there are mobile phone inspectors that want to test your device from 200 yards away... and then wonder why your number is no longer available in the days you try to claim it back, thinking that it was in fact actually broke! I had a chuckle then, remembering a story of individuals who actually purchased what they believed was a laptop from the boot of a car that had just pulled up on the street they were walking. After handing over the money, the person was gobsmacked when they discovered it was just a few bricks in a laptop bag!

Sorry, orion, I thought I was discussing with someone who knew about the frailties of speedway. Please let me apologise. The old league system was like a one-off world final, every point scored placed you a certain place higher than you may have been, and so it told in the final analysis. The main pot of gold in EL now is the Play-Offs. The old system of straight league matches was about how high you finished. Now, the current league structure, it is like the Grand Prix (and we all recall young Iversen doing nowt (was it 7 he scored to reach the top eight in that meeting two weeks ago?) and then going on to win the Final that night). Well, the current EL set up allows certain "strange" drifts of form to occur over the lengthy qualifying matches before the semis and final. It aint what you do, it’s the way that you do it. Speedway is like wrestling - a lot of play before the serious guy and main contender pulls through. I recall one particular midland outfit being rubbish early season a several years ago, had a 20-minute makeover somewhere mid-term, and then - Da-Da! - They were a completely different proposition, no longer an ugly duckling, and a team that had been as scary as that weenie kid on the beach, the sand in face lad that the bullies picked on. I also remember, more recent, a plush side from somewhere near Dorset being under scrutiny regarding some mysterious engine failures they were suddenly beset by. I know things used to happen in the old days, but that doesn't make an argument for them continuing. We should have found solutions to halt this sort of thing. When we do, perhaps people won't laugh at speedway and may actually see it as a worthwhile sport to latch on to. There'll be no need for a “Kid's for a quid night” or a “Bring a friend with you next time… or we'll be closed by September” advertising slogan.

So, you are saying every match in the league qualifying series is meaningful, when teams are purposely throwing points all over the place in order to strengthen up mid-term and mount a serious Play-Off challenge? I feel SKY will be interested in screening the Play-Offs only - once they have ditched the Elite League coverage, the round-robin league programme where the terraces are bare. The Play-Offs mean something, at least, as the crowds seem to appear. But big crowds in the P/Os are at the cost of what comes before.

Must have been some promotional offer going on at the ice-cream van on the fourth turn. Such an interest is rare at modern-day speedway. Can't believe a crowd of 3,000 at Coventry speedway, not during matches I've watched. And we slag off Poole for fiddling with numbers.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Speedway for me... no matter at Hyde Road on a Saturday, or the dump on Friday, Mondays or a Sunday, I would still be there. I think the actual problem was, after the initial novelty of it being live on SKY and people wanted to be there (possibly in case they were on TV and to see what SKY was all about), the thrill of live speedway soon wore off and fans decided to pick and choose the matches they coughed up for. Often, I suspect some fans chose not to attend SKY matches for the simple reason that it was dragged out for too long, with adverts every few races. The problem was that matches were live. Another problem, and perhaps it is just simply coincidence, but the Play-Offs took away the importance of the regular league match, making it just a qualifying peg for the end-of-season Play-Offs. For example, when teams used to meet before the Play-Off system, every fixture was vital and teams needed points to push them to whatever position in the table they could attain. Unless you are chasing a P/O spot, the final standings are of no importance. I also think a league of just eight sides isn't enough to warrant a 30 week campaign. It doesn't make sense, filling up every week of the season, crowds are then diluted, when a once-home and away meeting would give punters just the one opportunity to see those seven men against the other seven. I used to be more eager to attend matches knowing, say, Anders Michanek with Reading was the only chance I'd see him. The problem is nowadays, there are less teams to pad out the same weeks we had to fill in a season when the league was twice the size. For example, Cardiff gets about 45,000 every year. Give that stadium three GPs each summer... and we'd probably get 55,000 in total. People wouldn't be as eager to attend three as they are just the once... less is more, so they say. Perhaps we all began taking SKY's coverage for granted, even the promoters, and a lot of fans on here with their critical ways of the organisation, Kelv and Nige an' all. Perhaps it is time now for a proposal to be made to SKY regarding showing a match, which isn't a live one, every now and again. The 14-year marriage hasn't done either speedway or SKY any favours.

Another question: after SKY's initial investment (was it £5 million?) how come the sport's brains banished the tac-sub rule four years after the investment and brought in the Golden Double, to help save costs. Tracks were given a small fortune but were still struggling with costs.

Speedway has for so long had a short-term mentality, spend the money as quick as… and not bother about the future. The first few years of SKY saw the kids for a quid thing, and crowds looked healthy. But, even that couldn’t retain an interest, a league lacking enough teams to offer variety. Fans weren’t swayed to come more often. There is only so much of this team versus that one we can put up with, and choice of small track against sides from big tracks was often a miss-match. Whoever chose the fixtures needs sectioning. Speedway, and it is 14 years’ worth of money that will never come again, will always be its worst enemy… the men we allow to run the sport, there here today gone tomorrow, anorak-wearing, track offices confined in porta-cabins... the sort building sites and scrap yards use… I think after the investment SKY brought, the sport should have progressed from its position of hanging by a thread. Speedway shouldn’t demand sympathy. Imagine helping out a friend or a family member financially, trying to give them a nudge up the ladder after years of struggle. Despite this, you found them wearing the same clothes they were in years before, all your benevolence... you still found no food in the cupboard. The money you were giving was obviously going elsewhere. Speedway is that person, with no long-term strategy in place to help itself, instead just frustrate the people that stand by its side. The hoped for change just didn’t materialise, the chance-of-a-lifetime not taken.

Last night's second leg of the Euro Championship was spoiled early on by constant restarts and riders returns to the pits. I thought, here we go again, another late one... but the meeting actually ended on time. I have noticed false starts are increasing at the moment, then the needless return to the pits by the riders, probably to check if they are still contracted to the club in the two minutes that's passed... or even perhaps to see if the club's still running.

Maybe I am not upto speed... but was Darcy found guilty of anything he was suspected of?

Someone's tetchy this morning. The names I listed were characters, I feel anyway, but Ward has nothing about him to be put alongside these names. Maybe his story will be best told by future generations, I don't know, his rogue antics have happened away from the speedway track. Mentioning a killer is a low remark, as Carter did more for the sport on the track... and Lee made his bad-boy name partly for his antics on a speedway track. Ward, apart from a few wheelies here and there, what else is there about him. His interviews are as bad as watching paint grow, and he has no personality, but that's just my opinion. Ward's misgivings have nothing to do with speedway. The names I list all have stories about them that happened on speedway tracks. Garry Middleton, the story of him having a gun at a speedway track and what the papers would make of that, well, at least they would be interested.... just as many recall the story 40 years since it apparently happened. We have no story makers in speedway - apart from Craig Cook and Ben Barker recently - that help the sport build up interest - even amongst its own faithful. In 1991, when Michael Lee made a return to speedway after six years out, the interest it created. Often Halifax, led by Kenny Carter, were poor visitors to Belle Vue, hammered by 30 points on most occasions. But I stumped up my admission fee, knowing there was always something likely to happen when he was in town. Most of today's speedway stars compare to Cliff Richard... sometimes fans wish to see characters similar to Mario Balotellii.

No, then it wouldn't work, if we had more drug takers. It is because we have one or two isolated characters that come along every now and again that makes them stand alones. Michael Lee is one, there was Kenny Carter, Garry Middleton, Jack Millen... The list goes on. The only character I can think of in modern day speedway, and one that I adore watching, is Nicki Pedersen. Tomas Gollob is another. Apart from that... er... go on, give your heads some working. Can you think of anyone?

The dwindling number of speedway fans going through the turnstiles only exists out of concience, and many have been known to say this, because of a feeling that at least some form of speedway - no matter how poor - is better than none at all. And, results of a little survey I carried out in my own mind.... about 100 per cent of promoters agree with them.

Fifteen pages on and this Michael Lee thread is still a hot potato. Over 20 years since his last league race, Lee is still capturing our attention. We all remember from speedway glory times how Lee walked out of a meeting after several exclusions, the image of his jacked-off-with-speedway expression as he quit the arena. He filled many column inches in that period and, right or wrong and for whatever reasons, put speedway in the headlines. He was always of interest, and this thread proves he still is, his story possibly could have filled two books. The thing is, the state speedway is, how many of today's personalities will we be discussing in the year 2035? Thirty years after his infamous Ipswich walkout and his frustration with referee Frank Ebdon's starting techniques, we all remember it vividly. It created a buzz. There was, still is, and will forever be a story contained within Michael Lee’s gangly frame. In contrast, 30 hours after the latest SKY match, was it Birmingham vs Wolves, how many rider interviews can you remember from that piece of TV Gold? Exactly… Go on, admit it, we love characters like Michael Lee. There are too many squeaky-clean riders with nothing of interest to say in the current inexpressive speedway scene. Give me a Michael Lee story any day… rather than an interview with a current Superstar that is about as enlightening as 30 seconds with his toolbox would have been. Boy! Am I going to get some stick now….

Win at all costs... even damaging the sport in the meantime. I just want the sport to be serious, its rules water-tight. Can't see it ever happening though. In a way, especially how the sport was clobbered by The Sunday People in 1984, doesn't it make you feel relieved that the media doesn't follow or cover the sport. A few mates easing off in World Championship rounds may have been a starter dish had the media picked up on race-throwing in league competition.

Without having to re-read all the posts, I can't recollect saying the old tac sub was fairer. And, yes, there was heat 13 in the old days (that's why it was 13 heats) but there wasn't heats 14 nor 15. And remember, we have also had meetings consisting of 18 heats since the 13 heats were sent to heaven. Speedway being speedway, I have never known an attempt to try and cut costs by giving the top earners more rides... nor have I heard of trying to cut costs by increasing the amount of races that promoters have to pay for. It's like going to the barbers for a haircut but he cuts it longer than you went in with. So, riders wouldn't allow opponents to go passed them - in order for the GD to be used - because they would lose money by doing so. But you believe riders let opponents passed in TS days. Didn't they lose money then? Swerving this particular subject for one moment.... speedway - whether in the old TS days or the GD ones - does leave itself open to race-throwing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't one particular side a couple of years ago have so many engine failures and race retirements in just one match (average clipping?) that an investigation was launched?

So, our bright-thinking promoters attempt to reduce costs by banishing the Tac Sub rules to history. But they continue having the money-munching races of Heats 13 and 15, where top riders are given at least one extra ride than is needed or the sport can afford. I too prefer the Tac Sub to the Golden Double. In fact, I prefer toothache to the Golden Double... or even having swine flu.

If questions exist about the fairness of the Golden Double against the Tac Sub rule, and that somebody on this forum has worked out they are equal, then why piddle about with speedway's long-standing scoring sytsem? I never said the Golden Double was unfair - although at times it shows the clear light of day that riders throw races (not good at all) - and I have memories of the times the Golden Double that make the sport to seem silly (even to the long-in-the-tooth observer) and strays into the realms of it not being serious. I can't think of a time I remember the TS rule bringing speedway down to the levels that the GD has and questioning some of the riders’ ethics.

I knew it wasn't just me... I missed the days of terrace team manager, planning ahead of who was going to be brought in there, there. One thing with the Golden Double, I feel, is that matches do become more predictable. It is only worthwhile using the GD in certain races, the old TS you could begin shifting them about as soon as heat 5, as long as you were six down, and it allowed the proud feeling of "Right, we'll throw Collins and Morton at them now"; or fear when Ipswich, for example, could bang in Sanders and Louis.

It has dawned on me why I dislike the Golden Double. We all remember playing with those toy cars as a child - were they dinky cars? - and I used to hate it (even as a 6 year-old) if one of my mates brought out a car to play with that was twice or three times bigger or smaller than I had chosen to drive. I don't know what it was, but I wanted our session to be as real as possible. I didn't want to drive passed a car that was out of proportion with mine. As well as being turned off by ladies with big feet, I could never date one; if something feels not quite right to me... then that's it. The 2006 Play-Off Final made up my mind. I had put up with it until then. I understand people like it, and I'm not saying it's the sole reason I don't attend anymore live matches, but one of those drip-drip affects that was like one final nail in my coffin lid.