waiheke1

Really? Zmarzlik is at that level imo - in my view in the top half dozen post war riders. Tbf Nielsen would have cleaned up his era under a Gp system.

Unlikely. What seasons after 75 do you think he would have been world champion? Pc 76&77, olsen 78, Lee 79?

Any details on this? I have both his books from subsequent eras, but can't see anything on line regarding this. Would be very keen to get a copy if it has averages

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BRITISH-SPEEDWAY-LEAGUES-1946-1964-MORRISH/dp/B009N1I3GK https://www.abebooks.co.uk/BRITISH-SPEEDWAY-LEAGUES-1946-1964-PETER-MORRISH/20772447386/bd

Funny you should say that, handwritten in my programme from the 1982 meeting vs Kings Lynn is "L Carr destroyed Lee" after a ht8 (I think) victory. And that is a cracking photo, I have memories of Lee that season being unbelievably quick on occasion. Larry and Louis were a great 1-2 pairing for the Aces. As for the Andy Campbell signing, I think that was the worst of the Bamford era (ahead of Crang and Ingels - of all the Americans to sign, why the one who couldn't ride big tracks! - who were both in the same season)

In major meetings that season, I make it 5-2 to Lee. Nielsen beating Lee in both meetings in the world championship, but Lee beating Nielsen twice in the test, twice in the BLRC and beating him again in the WTC Final. Interesting though H2H results are, I'm always a little skeptical as to how meaningful they are, especially over such a low population (as opposed to today, where top GP riders will meet each other 15-20 times in the GPS alone.)

Yep, great discussion, and agreed on 83. Half a dozen candidates, though realistically I find it hard to see past Nielsen or Lee, possibly Siggy. But then Gundersen did win the BLRC so maybe could have done enough; and if KC was not recovering from the immense disappointment of LA, maybe his season would have been different; and if they'd run it on genuine race tracks maybe Mort would have been in the running for the podium; or maybe Billy could have lifted himself for the big meetings as he tended to do on world final night; still Hans from Lee for me though...

And in case you were interested Sid, Aces vs Sheffield 1/10/83 Golden Helmet: 1. Morton Lee 67.9 2. Lee Morton 67.1 3. Lee Morton 68.7 Aces vs Sheffield: Ht1: Lee L Carr Ross P White fell 69.3 3-3 ht 5: Lee P Carr D Morton P Collins Fell 70.0 (Collins fell L4 while leading) 15-15 ht8: Lee Wilson L Carr Smith 70.4 23-25 ht11: Lee Morton Bargh Smith 70.2 35-31 ht 13: Lee P Collins G Short C Morton ef D Morton ex tapes 70.4 Morton ef L3 while in second 42-36 Lee 15 point maximum (Meeting a double-header; Aces vs Birmingham followed, with Nielsen scoring 13, beaten twice by Mort)

Have to say, 81 Lee was not as bad as some have made out. Disappointing compared to 79/80, but arguably still one of the top 5 riders in the world and Long track champ. 82 Lee was considerably worse...

Agree a big loss and clearly world class. Was he hard/ruthless enough to be World Champion is maybe the question mark, clearly he had the talent?

Add Penhall to that list. And K Moran and Muller if they had taken the sport a little more seriously...

Would agree with this. My stat ratings (which I'd like to update with a slightly revised methodology if I ever get time) had Nielsen top in 83, followed by Eric, Siggy then Lee. I suspect in a GP series Hans would have taken the title with Lee second. The rankings had Siggy third in the world in 82&83, 4th in 84 in a significantly curtailed season (Lee 5th).

Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983 Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3 Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0 Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4) Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6) Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9) Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11) Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13) Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15) Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17) Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21) Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22) Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24) Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25) Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27) Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

I'll have the Aces v Poole result at home, will dig it out when back from holidays. I do remember Andy Smith passing him in heat 11 to join Mort for a 5-1 Also remember him scoring a flawless 15 point maximum as a guest for Sheffield at Hyde Rd that season

You don't think the racing was decent in the first ten heats?

And tbf there's been passing even early on; just progressively better racing in each block of four. Have to say the racing has been very good - certainly better than any of the 80s world finals.

Could say exactly the same for Zmarzlik. Both looking impressive Also good to see heats got through quickly - about an hour from first race to the interval.

Tbf, racing is better than the last couple of GPS. And track is better than a lot of world finals and meetings that I recall - 77 World Final, 84 British final, 85 World pairs final and pretty much any qualifier at Vojens spring to mind....

Agree

Weren't people complaining at the last GP about the qualifying laps beforehand on race day?

Before I was born!

Pretty original at belle vue: PC - Peter Collins Mort/Mighty Mort: Chris Morton Jimmy Mac: Jimmy McMillan The Racing Car: Peter Carr Carl "Bye Bye" Blackbird Barry "Baz" Ayres And perhaps the only one with a hint of creativity: Smudger and foxy/foxy? - Andy Smith

Countless examples: tennis, golf, snooker all based on rankings. F1 is effectively 100% wildcard. Most team sports, participation in a league is based on performance the previous year. Cricket and rugby World cups, many teams qualify based on rankings or previous tournament performance.

Or Peter Collins in the British final in 77...or penhall in the American final in 85...or the years there was no rider from the host country in the world final...

Just have A-D finals. I prefer every point counting, but if the organisers are fixed on the current point system, that's what I would be inclined to go with.