Humphrey Appleby
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Posts posted by Humphrey Appleby
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4 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:A big problem that has been raised before is that Speedway Fans are split distinctly into two groups namely supporters of a given team and only have interest in that and supporters of the sport who have no team allegiance just enjoy the spectacle on show.
I for one feel that the league format could be scrapped, needing to generate funds for away meetings off the home gate just isn't working. 600 fans trying to cover stadium rents, 2 lots of travel, 2 lots of points monies etc just isn't working and is leaving a financial hole. Organise your home meetings on the day and time that works best for your fan base and run the meeting formats that suit best. Even if thats 7 vs 7 team meetings the host club can build competitive opposition to help generate a better gate.
Should teams then want to get together and run mini leagues amongst themselves should their attendances support it. But the primary role of any promotion should be to promote their own venue, its clear that there has been no sensible collaboration between clubs over the years and thats what has generated the mess so switch it back to looking after number 1. The clubs that look after their fan base best will survive and those who don't will fold but at least it gives all clubs a fighting chance.
Maybe you need both leagues and open meetings. There may be a number of tracks that prefer league racing, whilst others want to stage other types of meetings. Perhaps even a combination of the two.
I'd imagine the reality is that most tracks don't have that many riders on their doorstep, so there would have to be some sharing of riders and travelling around even if you just ran open meetings. Plus seeing the same riders every week would get repetitive, so the costs of running league meetings may not actually end up being greater and it gives some context throughout the season.
However, these sorts of decisions need to be made on the basis of some sort of 'market research', even if that's just a promoter's knowledge of what works for them.
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49 minutes ago, Ray Stadia said:It seems that many of the current promoters, with the exception of the Isle of Wight, just want to carry on with the same formula. It would appear they are not interested in getting round a table with marketing people, supporters of the sport, riders etc.
This is the tricky part.
If you ask the remaining fans of the sport, you'll get multiple answers that will probably coalesce along the lines of returning to the 'good 13 heats + proper 2nd half' with riders marching out to Imperial Echoes. You really need to be asking people who don't go - your potential new audiences, but you're assuming they've even heard of speedway in the first place.
With respect to marketing people - speedway is really an odd outlier of a sport and I think the average marketing type just wouldn't grasp the essence of the sport and would do more damage with ideas that just wouldn't work. You really need to find someone who's got a modicum of knowledge of the sport to start with, and that's going to be like finding a unicorn.
A tough challenge.
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1 hour ago, Ray Stadia said:So, what would be your solution HA?
Where does one begin? There are so many issues.
I think you'd need to look at the running costs of every track, what their fixed and variable costs are, and work out what they can afford with their current revenue levels. You'd then need to work out how to structure the season in terms of fixtures and pay rates that work for (say) 80% of the tracks, but you'd also need to take into account the number of riders available (for the whole season) who'd be willing to ride for those pay rates. You'd also need to work out what stadiums would be prepared to accept and which could continue to run on the expected revenue, and taking all these factors into account, the hard-nosed decision may be that some teams and tracks are simply no longer viable.
But I think there's little point continuing with a sport if all it's doing is rationalising ever downwards without looking at how to improve its situation. So in parallel I think a lot of consideration needs to go into how the whole product can be improved whilst losses are reduced or preferably stemmed - at the very least faster-paced meetings with more races held on days convenient for the fans, up-to-date presentation and efforts to attract younger audiences. If something a bit different is needed (e.g. 8-rider races with double points, sidecars, quads, whatever) - whether fully or partially - then so be it, but this needs to be based on some sort of market research rather than because someone just happens to think it's a good idea.
I think to ensure costs are controlled in the longer term, you'd also need to have the riders centrally employed by the BSPL with tracks effectively run as franchises and allocated riders on a needs basis. Maybe you also need to consider pooled engines as well - maintained to as common a standard as possible - but allocated in some rotating or random manner to riders.
Ultimately though, I think the underlying problem is that speedway has a poor or largely non-existent image, has an ageing social demographic that isn't attractive for sponsors or even media coverage, and is far too expensive for what it offers. All the tinkering in the world with formats and numbers of meetings won't fix this unless these other things can be turned around, which is going to be far from easy because the sport has sunk so low. The reality is that no decent business or marketing person would want to touch speedway with bargepole, far less work for the limited rewards it could offer currently, so it's difficult to see how the sport will dig itself out of the hole, even if the current promoters were willing to provide a spade.
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1 minute ago, mikebv said:Most rented stadia is owned by the greyhound fraternity which I can't see wanting to sell up for development as that sport would pretty much cease to exist if they did...
Umpteen greyhound tracks have closed in the past years and I'd thought it's another sport on borrowed time - not least because of the animal welfare issues. As with speedway, I could well imagine many greyhound stadiums live a hand-to-mouth existence and that it's only the speedway income keeping the wolf from the door, so losing half of that may not go well.
1 minute ago, mikebv said:Therefore if ever there was an opportunity to find some common ground between use and profit (for both), it's surely now...
The bottom line is that I don't think many stadium owners would be in a position to accept significant rent reductions and expect the stadium to continue to be going concern.
1 minute ago, mikebv said:And if clubs are losing money by holding meetings eg Brum and Newcastle, then maybe less, but actually meaningful, meetings would be better for them...?
Perhaps, but without knowing their cost structures it may be they'd lose even more if they staged less meetings because they'll have certain fixed costs and have probably agreed rent on the basis of a minimum number of meetings. And of course, they'd need to comprise with other tracks who will likely have different cost structures.
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4 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:1000cc chairs do need the bigger circuits to produce their best but IOW, Belle Vue, Somerset have all hosted spectacular racing in the past, i think Kings Lynn has also. The 500 chairs can produce entertainment but it is a bit dialled down and don't quite have the thrill of the big chairs. That said lower power can generate closer racing, i feel that if the main solo class was downgraded to 250cc machines it would mean every rider would have to get everything out the engine and use track craft to get the wins rather than being reliant on having the best motor and the biggest b&lls which is often the case now. All of these require gradual changes over time but fastest isn't always bestest.
I think the problem is that you're adding an entirely different class of riders and machinery to a meeting, which would all cost money that the sport just doesn't have. Would you realistically find 40-odd sidecar outfits that would be prepared to buy and maintain specialist equipment, and be willing to travel to 30-40 meetings per season for a couple of races and a few quid? How also would you provide context to the sidecar class week-after-week as well?
This is quite aside fact that sidecars race the opposite way around the track, so you need to duplicate infrastructure like warning lights, and I suspect some tracks would not be safe enough to be licenced for clockwise racing without expensive modification.
I've seen sidecars at speedway a few times, and I'm afraid I don't think they're really the answer. I think people go to speedway to watch speedway bikes and not a variety show.
I fully agree there needs to be a fuller programme of races run more quickly, but I think the support races need to be junior leagues or mini-individual competitions with ongoing context (i.e. linked to a wider national competition).
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3 hours ago, Sings4Speedway said:Paying out for away meetings basically paying 14 riders from each gate, if its a 12 rider meeting then saving is already there, then throw in that you can pick and match up the riders to create a good meeting and you don't have to pick the top stars to create good racing but still use riders that are on show every week at CL level for example. Then as stated bulk out with additional races, 2nd halves throughout the match with riders that would happily turn out and put on a good show for just a contribution towards their costs.
I'm not sure you'd get the savings you think.
If you reduce the number of riders needed per meeting from 14 to 12, you might save the travel expenses for a couple of riders, but the other riders would need to take more rides each to fill up the requisite heats. Some of those may well be on higher points money anyway, but would certainly expect compensation for the increased wear-and-tear of their equipment over the course of the season. So your costs may well go up rather than down.
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3 hours ago, mikebv said:Bingo...
Dont run 20 meetings and pay out literally hundreds of thousand in salaries for 40 meetings, with poor returns and attendances....
Instead run say 10 meetings over six months from April to September (March if Easter falls then), with BIG prize money and promote and advertise them properly, using all the Bank Holidays available, and run Saturday and Sunday if it's your best day to attract a crowd..
Even those who rent must be able to negotiate 10 meetings per season only with their landlords given the current economic situation, and those landlords who keep the bar and car park take would be pleased to have large crowds attending Speedway meetings that have some "meaning" surely?
16, or even 12 at a push, riders of similar level at each meeting, therefore all races competitive and (if only 12 riders) the prize money shared would be greater..
Plenty of meetings for the riders, a chance to still earn good money and "proper, meaningful speedway" for the fans to watch..
Stick in a few "extras" to supplement the racing similar to the way the IOW do and who knows, it may help relaunch some "team racing" that starts again from scratch and doesnt remake all the mistakes which has led it to its current situation..
Unfortunately, I don't think it's that simple.
For those promotions renting their stadiums, what else are those stadiums going to be doing to cover their costs? If they lose the income from 10 speedway meetings, will they continue to be viable as going concerns and will they instead decide to sell up for development?
For those promotions owning their stadiums, they'll still have fixed costs regardless of how many meetings they stage. So by staging more meetings rather than less, they'll be at least getting some income to amortise some or all of those costs, and may in fact lose less money that way.
The number of meetings that get staged is presumably a compromise that suits the cost structure of all the promotions, and without having insight into all the costs, we can't know what the optimal number of meetings is.
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3 minutes ago, steve roberts said:Personally I had no problem with people leaving if that was their desire? Afterall the promotion already has their money irrespective of whether they stayed on or not but personally I always stayed on after the main event and saw some cracking races involving not only the main riders but the novices as well.
Speedway though, has to be one of the few forms of entertainment where the support act takes place after the main event...
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4 hours ago, Pinny said:I find it baffling how the Birmingham and Newcastle promotions have got the begging bowls out and expect it to work. I remember the Mallett's done it at Newport and were slaughtered for it. I never agreed with it and always thought there were other ways to try and get fans through the gate.
If your enterprise is already a marginal existence then an expectedly bad run of weather, England going on a good run in a major football tournament, or any number of other unexpected phenomena (e.g. COVID) will put your cashflow in jeopardy. I suppose a good businessperson should factor some of these things into their calculations, and obviously if you're able to run long enough you'd probably have a good idea of the ups-and-downs. But I doubt many going into speedway have a lot of experience with sports and/or events promotion and get caught out.
It's all very well saying that clueless promoters shouldn't really get involved in the sport, but the returns are so abysmal that there's not exactly a long queue of people lining up to take over. So it may well be the case of them or no speedway at all.
Of course, few if any sports are run on sensible economic lines anyway. Otherwise successful businesspeople seem to take leave of their senses when getting involved in sport, not least committing to particular costs that they have little say or control over.
Begging bowls are commonplace in all sports though, it's just that it's usually done in a more disguised and classy way for the likes of football, cricket and rugby...
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On 7/10/2021 at 10:00 AM, iainb said:Question: Why do some teams use their emblem name and others use their location name? It makes it mighty confusing when sometimes in commentary clubs are referred to with both/either or any of their names like Kumla/Inianarna/The Indians... sometimes it's like 6 teams are on show.
I'm not 100% sure about this, but I seem to remember being told it was because many tracks ran a couple of teams in different leagues which had different nicknames.
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On 7/10/2021 at 11:10 AM, Ghostwalker said:Skeppare is a commander of a smaller ship, but in this case people working on the shipyard that once existed in Västervik.
I believe Skepparna would translate directly to 'The Skippers'.
Keeping with the ship related theme, I think Kaparna translated to something like 'The Buccaneers' or 'The Privateers'.
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2 minutes ago, ch958 said:I did suggest at one point that if 2nd halves were to return points could be earned from them towards a season end thing. Would make them a bit more meaningful
I'd have been more bold and used 'second half' competitions as qualifying for the World Championship and subsequently the SGP.
That would have got riders to have taken them seriously...
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On 7/18/2021 at 5:30 PM, ch958 said:you say they 'think' the fans want team racing. If individual events were well attended surely they wd run them. Personally I enjoy them but prefer team racing.
The odd individual event was fine as a novelty meeting, but I think teams are a better business proposition. Individual riders come-and-go, whereas there's more continuity with teams.
Fans tend to follow the same team year-after-year regardless of who's riding, whereas you tend to lose interest in individual competitions when you no longer have a favourite rider in them.
I do think one missed opportunity though, was not linking all the open individual meetings of yesteryear into some sort of season-long national competition, possibly leading towards a Riders' Championship or something.
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On 7/19/2021 at 3:43 PM, Wee Eck said:Figures are available from Companies’ House website. The following are approximate losses made in the 2019 season:
Leicester £30k
Poole £16k
Berwick £9k
Belle Vue £84k
Edinburgh £18k
Redcar £35k
Scunthorpe £3k
Swindon £78k
and the only profit I could find:
Wolverhampton £7,000
Most, if not all speedway promotions have too small a revenue to have to file detailed accounts at Companies House, so all you're effectively seeing is a balance sheet at a given moment in time which often doesn't align with the speedway season either. It really doesn't tell you much about their profitability or otherwise.
Before the threshold was increased some years ago, some speedway promotions did have to file more detailed accounts and it was quite interesting what was claimed as expenses sometimes. There was undoubtedly cash-in-hand stuff going on as well, so apparent losses may not always be what are claimed, and are possibly written off against taxes elsewhere.
But it doesn't take a genius to work out from the attendances and limited other sources of revenues that speedway brings in, that it isn't a money spinner.
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3 minutes ago, mikebv said:On the Newcastle thread it mentions a turnover of circa £350k for the club..
No disrespect intended, but that is an 'average team with an average following'...
Therefore, using them as an 'average' it would mean the 18 teams in 2019 had around a £6.3M income collectively...
If that is the case then how the hell is the sport living hand to mouth every year and promoters get quoted as saying "survival is an achievement"?
Well it entirely depends on what your outgoings are. If your outgoings are close to, or exceed your revenue, then survival is an achievement.
I'm sure riders would generally also prefer more regular higher wages than an occasional prize fund when they might be injured and miss out. And 180k spread over 19 meetings is effectively 80 quid a point which is probably less than some would be on anyway.
It's not a bad idea and I've had thoughts on similar lines myself, but I feel speedway has gone past the point of tinkering with race formats and novelty competitions. It's the image, presentation, stadiums, value-for-money, clientele and poor media profile that does for it. People actually have to know something is happening before they can be interested it, far less be bothered to turn up...
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1 minute ago, Pinny said:As well as you can do three years here now without having to spend a day on a farm doing regional work, where as before you got granted a one year working holiday visa and could gain a second year if you had spent 88 days or more doing regional work in your first year.
Thought the 3-year working holiday visa already came in a couple of years ago, and some countries already had age increase to 35.
Also didn't think that the regional work necessarily had to be farm work. I knew someone who worked in construction up in Darwin who told me that qualified as well.
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44 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:Same with Brits going to Aus. If you get a job visa's will be granted without restriction, including minor any criminal records.
That's largely the case already.
Nothing much of substance beyond raising the age limits, and just a lot of political headlining I think.
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1 hour ago, startline sid said:can't see much getting back to normal in Oz for a long time - the figures i have seen only 5% of the population have had any vaccine doses (at that rate you will be there for another 3 years) - it is not a bonkers decision HERE(over half the adult population have had both doses) as its not just speedway but everything (theatres cinemas clubs racetracks etc are all opening and there would have been many complaints if speedway had not tried to open. Many of the riders from Oz are here and enjoying their racing. Its a vastly different situation here to Oz.
Oz is largely back to normal internally, and with the exception of Melbourne never really had lockdowns to the extent of the UK. The country has had less deaths in total than the UK had in one day earlier this year.
Of course, the Australian government claims to have controlled the virus by banning their residents from international travel, and forcing returning residents into hotel quarantine at their own expense. There is some talk that requirement will be lifted towards the end of the year for fully vaccinated residents, but we shall see.
Australia was slow off the mark with vaccinations, but I think it's been ramping up quickly and it's closer to 15% of the population now.
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6 hours ago, Elmo said:There were lots of fun & games from my memory as a 16 year old.
Here’s the 2nd half from my programme.
No-one finished Event 7? An exclusion for no helmet?
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2 hours ago, Pinny said:Believe its just for working holiday visas .
Looks like it. The working holiday visa scheme has existed for years, so this is just upping the age limit from 30 to 35 (probably as an attempt to compensate for the labour shortages caused by Brexit).
I believe in the past, Aussies without patriality often used working holiday visas to come and ride speedway, but there was a clampdown on this some years ago. I think a specific T5 or T2 visa with various qualifications is now required.
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On 6/12/2021 at 9:03 PM, mikebv said:Is your real name Jonah??
No offence mate, but stay away from the NSS will you?...
It's just the law of averages though.
I've visited about 80 permanent (i.e. not temporary or one-off) tracks in various countries over the years, and by my reckoning just 30 of those are still operational.
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53 minutes ago, iris123 said:It was certainly heads in the sand, going ahead with the season so early, with no major hope that restrictions would be dropped. It might just have made sense to allow those that were ok to start home meetings and those that were doubtful just to ride away at first. But it might just have been sensible to wait until all was ok before even starting......
Speedway has such a marginal existence that it would probably have been sensible to simply not run in 2021 either.
But as the hospitality industry is now finding out, many workers have moved found other jobs and aren't interested in entertaining the uncertainty any more. Added to that, you can't even find any foreigners to do the job either...
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1 hour ago, lisa-colette said:At the cricket you have to have a PCR test.
Speedway has been practicing social distancing for quite some time though...
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1 hour ago, 25yearfan said:I wonder why the Ham brothers didn't take the opportunity to move back to a stadium in an area that undoubtedly would have supported speedway in greater numbers?
Wasn't there some idea that Odsal was going to become the new 'Wembley' of British Speedway, and that staging elite league speedway in such a venue would pull the crowds?
The reality is that speedway thrived in some odd places (e.g. King's Lynn), and failed in some places that should in theory have much bigger catchments.
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Stadium Racing
in Speedway News and Discussions
Posted · Edited by Humphrey Appleby
The problem is that the 'insular bumpkins' are the only ones who've kept the sport running, often with their own money. Anyone with any sense got out years ago (or died from the stress of it), and no-one with any sense would really want to get involved now.
It's fairly easy to identify where it all went wrong down the years (and it's not all the fault of the promoters), but I suspect you'd end up with not many tracks if you 'took speedway away' from those running it now.