BWitcher

Let's deduct it then to make you happy.. Ooops you still lost.

Here we go again Sidney. This is NOT AN OPINION. It is quite simple maths. You don't understand it, so why do you bother trying to argue it? I don't need to learn because I am right. Were you like this at school when the teacher told you 5 x 5 was 25? Did you tell her in your opinion it wasn't? Because that's what you're doing now effectively.

Then you are WRONG. So far WRONG it's ridiculous as under the old tac sub rules the weaker side won MANY MANY more times than they do now.

You realise you are defeating your own argument?

Correct Moxey, you keep telling us this, but the only rule you have come up with is one that has been around in one form or another for the past 50 years. Were you slamming the tac sub rules in the 70's?

So basically you're now admitting you are wrong Moxey. Your whole argument was there are too many rules in speedway and other sports don't change them. Having been shown to be woefully wrong on that point you've no gone back to the old chestnut of the tactical rules aren't fair. Yet the old, MORE unfair rule was great. Marvellous. The simple fact is, the old tac sub was just as ridiculous, just as unfair as the current ruling. I'd quit now Moxey. As for me 'defending' the sport, that's quite ironic when I'm accused of quite the opposite by many. I'm glad we got to the bottom of this anyway and you accept finally the sport hasn't got too many rules. It's interesting as well that you keep mentioning football.. I repeat, the basic game of football that the fan watches has changed far more radically than speedway.

Why does it? Its not complicated at all. Do you think speedway is the only sport with such a system? Rugby Union has something very similar. Cricket has a far more complex scoring system in county cricket.

You are of course, so feel free to quantify your opinion. Remember the context.. Moxey claims someone from 30 years ago would not be able to understand a speedway meeting if they attended now. I've asked for what rules/regulations would make that not possible...Also remember the claim is other sports have not changed their rules.. I don't see anything on that list that would cause the fundamental understanding of the sport to be different. Ah yes, I would imagine that would be most confusing to any newcomers. Their ability to count past 4 has to be considered. It's amusing isn't it, one of the common gripes is speedway doesn't provide enough value (i.e. enough of it) and we get an extra 2 laps in a meet and its a negative. Football has tinkered with its rules in similar ways.. Extra Time.. Golden Goals.. Straight to penalties dependant upon the competition.. doesn't seem to 'confuse' fans. Now you have it. The issue isn't the rules. Yes they could be improved, but 95% of them need to be there for a reason. There aren't too many. The issue quite simply is promoters manipulating them to their own advantage and using the get out of 'best interests of speedway' to get away with it.

No it isn't a superb post at all WK. In fact it could quite easily be picked apart and a similar list created for many, many other sports. Nothing on there changes the fundamental basics of the sport. As I have said and others have confirmed, speedway as a spectacle has changed less than most other sports, particularly the main ones such as Football/Rugby. Its still 4 riders over 4 laps. What else matters as a spectacle? Absolutely spot on. The game has changed radically. As has football.

Thanks for confirming TNT. Nothing has changed in terms of what really matters. 4 riders racing over 4 laps and anyone who went 30 years ago would know exactly what was happening if they went now. As for your 'try to explain' certain things at the bottom.. why would a 'first time' even be interested in such complexities? I wouldn't be telling someone watching a football match, "You see the left back there, he's not ours really, just on loan for a month". It's irrelevant to the game. All the stuff you have listed, you can make similar lists for most sports.

I still don't get this 'short changing' of customers. We're still seeing 15 heats with 4 riders in each. I far prefer RR to a guest.

So after all the bluster we've got the Tac rule, which has always been in existence in one form or another and 'the yellow helmet color'... The rules aren't the problem. It's the lack of enforcing them correctly and the constant attempt at manipulation that are the issue.

You haven't though have you. You've said before that you detested the old Tac sub rule as well and you had the same feelings regarding it. So, nothing has changed, there is still a rule that you detest. That's beside the point anyway, you've said there are far too many regulations in speedway.. but given one.. one that has been around in one form or another for nigh on 50 years... what are these other regulations?

Not valid WK. We've already discussed the old tactical system was more unfair (which is the reason for you disliking it). You've also stated you held the old tactical rules in equal contempt. "If you just like speedway for watching the four laps, I suggest buying one of those wind up trainsets." Clearly I must be missing something here, perhaps others could fill me in, but what attracted me to the sport of speedway was, the four laps of speedway action. What provides me with the entertainment is the four laps of speedway action. I'd even go as far as to say that 99.99999999999% of speedway fans go to speedway for watching those 4 laps (x 15). Tell us Moxey, what are we missing? Again, you tell us, the rules are a joke.. which rule?

So you keep saying, but we are still waiting for ONE, besides the starts which I have given you as a freebie, that effects what you are actually watching on track.

Avoiding the question again Moxey. You are claiming a fan from 30 years ago couldn't go to a speedway match now and understand what was happening. So tell me, aside from the starts, what else has changed that would mean they couldn't understand the racing on track? The FACTS are, when it boils down to what matters, what the punter is watching, speedway has changed far less in that time than Football, Rugby, Cricket, NFL, MLB, Tennis and many many other sports.

Major rule change? The starts. Let me know of anything else that's different in terms of what matters, i.e. the 4 riders racing around the track. Of course if you are referring to the behind the scenes governance of the sport, team building etc then the others sports will have changed far far more as well.

In fact, having given Moxeys comments further thought, he is more wrong than I at first thought. Football has changed far more in the last 30 years than Speedway. Offside rule changed, can't pass back to the goalkeeper, technical areas for managers, 6 second rule for goalies (although never adhered too), tackling (especially slide) almost redundant in the game... just a few examples that would look very very different to someone who skipped 30 years of football evolution. What has changed in speedway in that time in terms of what matters, on the track? The starts.. that is basically it! No, you had a far more unfair system instead, we've already covered that in enough detail. Please, inform us of one of these ridiculous regulations that effect your enjoyment of a speedway race.

Still waffling on Moxey whilst avoiding the questions that pretty much render your comments null and void.

Explain the Duckworth-Lewis rule for me in Cricket please Moxey. As earlier, explain the challenge system in Tennis. Explain to me the financial fair play rules in Football. Explain to me the Rule 5 Draft in MLB. Explain to me the rules for where a Tight End can line up in NFL. 5 Massive sports in which I have no doubt over 75% of its fans wouldn't know the answer to those questions. Does it effect them? No it doesn't. Every sport has its regulations that your average fan doesn't know. Speedway has always had them, even back in the 60's and 70's. The difference is, you didn't have a forum where these rules were being highlighted all the time.

Yes they could. Take anyone who went in 1950, 1960, 1970 and they would know the sport now. It hasn't changed.

Funnily enough my Dad watched a speedway match with me on TV last night. He understood the rules quite clearly too and hasn't watched in years. Tell me about the challenge system used in Tennis 30 years ago Moxey, how did that work? Speedway doesn't have 'so many rules' either. Other sports have far lengthier rule books, but the majority of supporters aren't particularly concerned with studying them in fine detail. In saying that, the majority of speedway fans likely aren't either, it's a small minority of us 'statto' types on here that pull up the rulebook all the time.

They've changed them more than you think. Don't get me wrong Moxey, the sport has a major issue with the manipulation of the rules. My point is that they not all that complicated.

With respect, that's hardly a difficult question to answer is it. All sports have rules and many are far more complicated than in speedway. Do you think most fans who watch F1 know all the rules and regulations? Most fans won't even know half the rules that are in football!

The rules are manipulated yes, but that's a different issue to the 'complexity' of them. The other issue I can see is poorly qualified referees and officials. The referees should know the rulebook like the back of their hand. The oversights that have crept in of late are quite simply not justifiable. If they don't know the rules, they shouldn't be doing the job.