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Aces51

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Posts posted by Aces51

  4. Posted · Edited by Aces51

    It's a sad day when any club leaves the Premiership and in some ways, more so when it's a club like Poole, who have been so successful. If it were my club dropping down it would be  an understatement to say I would be very disappointed but I would continue to support them whichever league they were in. Far better to be in a lower league than to close down.

    I have watched a lot of second tier racing and it can be just as entertaining as the top tier. For some,  It can be more a psychological issue knowing that the overall standard of riders you are watching is lower. Overcome that and just enjoy it. 

    I wish Poole and all of their supporters well in the Championship. I have my doubts but I hope that  the expected financial savings work out and that crowd levels are maintained, if not improved. 

    • Like 4

  9. Posted

    A quick look at the doubling up riders at the end of the season shows that the average conversion factor to convert their PL  actual averages to their actual CL averages was 1.253.

    It varies from 1.93 to convert Wells actual PL average to his actual CL average down to 1.10 to do the same calculation for Jorgensen. 

    As we know the conversion factor used was 1.5, which will increase to 1.6 next season. The evidence shows that 1.5 was too high.

    However,  it was a deliberate BSPA policy to reduce the opportunities for doubling down for riders who didn't start the season in the CL. Bewley fell foul of this during the season when he wanted to get a CL place before he was given rides in Poland and Sweden.  Using the 1.5 conversion he was saddled withsomething like a 10.5 CL average.  

    The intention to increase the conversion factor by 0.1 every season, until it reaches 2.0, will make it more and more difficult for riders like Bewley to double down but more and more attractive for riders in the CL,  who don't have a PL average, to double up. By way of example, next year Josh Pickering, who has a CL average of 6.93, would have a PL average of 4.33 and in 5 years time,  3.46.

    • Like 2

  10. Posted · Edited by Aces51

    5 hours ago, DC2 said:

     

    The £750 per meeting would be in addition to the current pay of a number one.

    If the standard of the PL does not improve and be clearly a level above the CL we might as well have one league.

    It used to be the case that CL number ones were PL reserves, now some are PL number ones too (Wright, Harris). It’s stupid.

    I thought your intention was not simply to replace an existing number one with a better rider. If we assume for the moment that there are enough of these better riders willing to ride in the UK surely the intention would be to still keep the existing number ones and to replace a lesser rider further down the pecking order. The existing number one is still going to want to be paid pretty much the same as previously. He might not be the number one but he is still an 8 point, or whatever average  he achieved, rider. Any saving will be for the rider lower down the pecking order and £750 is not likely to be close to covering the money saved compared to what is paid to the new number one. 

    The standard of PL teams  is already clearly above that of CL teams. However,  I agree that it is ridiculous that someone can be a number one in both leagues, although Masters and Wright are the two lowest averaged number ones in the PL and Harris, who you mention, is not a number one in the PL. That is more a problem caused by doubling up/down.

    5 hours ago, Grachan said:

    I don't know how Swindon did financially this year, but last year they lost money and a big part of that was because of getting rid of Jason Doyle. They were very keen to bring him back this year, so it will be interesting to know how their finances were.

    Stronger teams do bring in better crowds.

    The main reason many Swindon supporters have given for the increased crowds is the better racing on the new track.  However,  I accept that a successful team brings in a better crowd but not that a stronger team finishing near the bottom end of a league of stronger teams will did so. 

  11. Posted

    25 minutes ago, DC2 said:

     

    But how can Swindon afford Doyle? Or indeed the rest of their top five? Terry Russell says we can.

    How could Leicester afford Vaculik and Przedpelski?

    And Zagar rode here for several years; how has he become impossible to afford?

    Surely, if the PL is to be distinct from the CL it should aspire to have proper number one riders? Not Chris Harris and Charles Wright. 

    There has to be some ambition.

    If BV, Wolves or Sheffield signed Zagar or Vaculik or Chris Holder would their average crowd not increase by 100 people and would not that cover the additional cost?

     

     

    Crowds didn't drop by 100 when Zagar left.  However, 100 extra fans at a typical £15 ,after paying VAT, amounts to £1,500. That is going to have to pay the costs of the likes of Zagar for one home and one away meeting.  Riders of that calibre are not going to race for anything like as little as £750 a meeting. However,  the real point is that most top riders just will not race in the UK. 

    I agree that the PL should aspire to improving the overall standard but it has to be done in a way that is achievable and affordable. We also need to increase the number of teams in the league and that means operating in a way that minimises the risk of losing existing teams.

  12. Posted

    6 minutes ago, Grachan said:

    Team were never built to equal averages until the low points limits came in. They don't need to be equal in average.

    Swindon have a high average because of a few big home wins, but other teams can still get decent sides together.

    A low average encourages team changes, and also makes as side that can make a decent change almost unstoppaple.

    Ipswich had to drop two good riders to bring Iversen in. They would have had a better chance in the final if they had been able to keep Kennett.

    Teams have been built to a points limit for the last 40 years, long before lower limits were introduced and during that period most teams, have tried to get as close to the limit as they could.

    Most years some supporters of whichever team wins the league and has a points total above the team limit argue the limit should be raised to allow them to keep their team. Perfectly understandable and a desirable objective if there are sufficient riders available to enable every team to build to that limit and if it is financially viable for them to do so.

    Unfortunately, that isn't the current position. There are not the riders available and suggesting the likes of Vaculik and Zagar is unrealistic. Firstly, because it is very unlikely they or, other top riders, will ride here and secondly, because the league as a whole cannot afford to import the required number of riders of that quality.

  13. Posted

    6 minutes ago, DC2 said:

     

    Belle Vue are four points below Swindon’s team so how about swapping Berge for Brady Kurtz. Would not this team stand a chance with an injury free season:

    Fricke

    Worrall

    Bjerre

    Bewley

    Kurtz

    Etheridge

    Lidsey

     

     

    Even that team only adds up to 45.59 compared to Swindon who achieved 46.34.

    As hyderoad has pointed out the problem is building 6 other teams that get close to 46.34, not just one team that gets close.

  14. Posted

    On 10/24/2019 at 3:52 PM, PHILIPRISING said:

    Freddie ... if you talking Lindgren he isn't even racing in Sweden next year. 

     

    On 10/24/2019 at 4:02 PM, Call me wolfie said:

    I'm well aware of that, and for his reasons in not riding in Sweden next year, which makes him more likely to be tempted back to the UK, in my opinion

     

    On 10/24/2019 at 7:23 PM, PHILIPRISING said:

    HE says he wants to concentrate all his efforts on winning the World Championship and that means racing in just one league. 

     

    4 minutes ago, DC2 said:

     

    Unless he was talking about Woffinden.   :)

     

     Seems clear to me he is referring to Lindgren.

    • Like 1

  15. Posted · Edited by Aces51

    51 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

     

    Where has this ‘says he won’t ride here’ come from? I’ve not read anything to confirm that.

    I don’t think he will be back either just to confirm.

    Philip Rising said on this thread that Lindgren will not be riding in Sweden,  that he wants to concentrate on the World Championship and that he will only ride in one league.

    I think it safe to say that will be Poland and therefore that he will not be riding in the UK and that the information must have come from Lindgren or a reliable source close to him.  otherwise,  I very much doubt that Philip Rising would have put what he did on here. 

    • Like 1

  16. Posted

    35 minutes ago, DC2 said:

     

    Not an improvement?

    As you say, they are 6/7 pointers and there are 23 riders in the PL with averages below 6.

     

    You misunderstand my point.  The discussion is about bringing back top riders. With the exception of Lindgren, who says he won't ride in the UK, none of those you mention are in that category. It is in that sense that they are not an improvement. None of them are the top riders that some on here are asking for and in reality are either not likely to come or to be too expensive.  

    If I remember correctly, Poole didn't bring back Woryna and possibly Jakobsen because of the cost and had difficulty finding a replacement for Worrall because there was no suitable replacement left in the CL. 

     

  17. Posted

    1 hour ago, DC2 said:

     

    You said “the best riders return”, but I didn’t think you meant the GP top eight, because we haven’t had them for years.

    Three of the seven I mentioned rode in the top league in Poland and would be respectable heatleaders, while the other four should be six pointers (although you might have to replace Zengota with Woryna, Wozniak or Freddie Jacobsen as he doesn’t appear to have ridden this year).

     

    I assume when people talk about the best riders or top riders that they are talking about GP standard or, at least on the fringes of that standard. We already have plenty of riders of the Zengota, Woryna, Jakobsen standard and better. I'm not saying they wouldn't be welcomed but they are not improving the standard of rider, we've already got many 6/7 point riders.

  18. Posted

    1 minute ago, DC2 said:

     

    That sounds like a mantra which isn’t actually true.

    How did Somerset afford the World Champion in 2018?

    I’m not saying we can afford the superstar Poles or the top eight in the GPs, but riders like Lindgren, Kasprzak, Przedpelski, Kim Nilsson, Lahti, Zengota and Gomolski were all riding here just two years ago.

    And Simon Stead seems up for the challenge. Maybe he still has a good relationship with Vaculik:

    http://www.speedwaygb.co.uk/news.php?extend.37661

     

     

    You say it's a mantra that which isn't actually true but then give a list of riders who, Lindgren apart, wouldn't qualify as the best riders in the world, some would struggle to be heat leaders in the UK and Lindgren has already made clear he won't ride here. 

    As for Somerset, hardly a good example considering that at the end of 2018 they opted to return to the CL. I doubt they would have done that if they're season at the top level had been a financial success.

  19. Posted

    43 minutes ago, theblueboy said:

    It’s not. But this thread would be redundant if the promoters in this country had a brain.

    I want to see the best riders in this country. Others are happy with lesser riders, me I am paying £18, so I think as I am paying top dollar the best riders, that want to ride, should be here. 

    Setting the average to the highest available average is the best way to return speedway to a level that the customer wants to see That’s not me just saying that, I am judging that by the number of missing people on the terraces.  

    You may be right about the missing numbers, although I think there are many reasons why they no longer attend. It is a fact that crowd numbers had dropped drastically long before the best riders departed. The decline started in the 1980's.

    We probably all agree that we would like to see the best riders return but clubs can no longer afford them. At the moment speedway has to run on a basis that is currently affordable. There needs to be a plan to stabilise the sport to avoid any further decline and then to gradually try to build it back up to the best standard that is achievable. That means doing nothing which puts that progress at risk and a sudden significant increase in the team points limit may well do that.

    You say you are paying top dollar so the best riders should be here. The best riders want to be paid top dollar and I'm afraid that your £18 won't cover it unless there was an immediate large and sustained increase in crowd numbers. I doubt you or any sensible person is going to invest thousands of pounds in the hope that crowds will increase sufficiently to cover that outlay. That's why it has to be a step by step plan to rebuild the sport to a stage where that investment risk is a sensible proposition.

    Where we might agree is that the BSPA bears much of the responsibility for the position in which the sport currently find itself and a healthy degree of scepticism about whether they have the ability to come up with a workable plan to solve the problems.

  20. Posted

    10 minutes ago, theblueboy said:

    I see the weakest clubs in speedway continuing to dictate terms to the BSPA. 

    I suspect there isn’t many, if any, clubs that hasn’t had their fan base seriously eroded over the last 10 years.

    Speedway in the UK continues to erode the quality every year, yet, apparently using lower averages each year, which in theory makes the costs more sustainable. Can anyone tell me how many clubs have made a profit in the last 10 years, and evidence to support this?

    Surely, if you are cutting your cloth every year because you are addressing cost issues but you are not breaking even or making a profit then the business model you are using does not work! 

    Speedway clubs are like lemmings. They continue to move to the cliff edge and the day when they go over the edge isn’t far away. 

    I wasn't aware that anyone on this thread is proposing a further cutting of the cloth or a further erosion of standards.

    The argument seems to be to remain at the level we are next year or to make a dramatic increase of 4 points, knowing that will increase costs and not be achievable for some teams because there are not the riders or the money available to do it.

    My suggestion is to improve the standard in small steps year on year in a way that is achievable and affordable.

  21. Posted

    1 hour ago, DC2 said:

     

    That’s the point though.

    Should a points limit be imposed with the aim of equalisation, or the aim of saving costs, or should it be 46.34 to allow Swindon and every other team to keep as many of their current riders as they like with the aim of encouraging rider and fan loyalty?

    Which is the most important aim? Equalisation, costs or loyalty?

    If costs were an issue for a club there would be nothing to force it to change its current team. It wouldn’t have to build to 46.34.

    After all, the only club that wasn’t competitive this year was Peterborough. With a little bit of luck, better form from one or two riders or an injury or two for Swindon and any one of six clubs could have won it.

    Does imposing a 42.5 limit every year and forcing most clubs to lose one or two riders actually reduce costs or does it reduce revenue by causing disillusioned fans to leave the sport or go less often?

     

    If Swindon had had the team they finished with from the beginning of the season they would have finished top by a considerable margin.

    Most teams already retain the nucleus of their team from year to year. How many seasons have Fricke, Steve Worrall and now Bewley spent at Belle Vue and Cook was there for many years before leaving this year.

    No team will want to start the season 4 points or more behind other teams, their fans will write them off, suitable and affordable riders will not be available for them to sign, crowds will be down and that will put their future in jeopardy. Fans often accused Poole of looking only after their own interests not those of the sport as a whole when they made these sort of proposals. 

    Even if we had a 46 point limit the average achieved at the end of next season would be 42.5. It always will be unless the race format changes.  A workable and more affordable compromise would be to increase the team total points limit to 43 and retain that  43 point figure for say 5 years. At the end of each the year the average will be 42.5 so by increasing it to 43 every year you would effectively increase the standard to equate to a 45 point limit, as compared to this season, at the end of the 5 years.

     

  22. Posted

    The simple fact is that regardless of how much we might want to improve the strength of teams in the PL there are not the riders or the money to allow every team to build to 46.34.

    The average this year, as it is every year was close to the inevitable 42.5 at 42.43. Teams struggled last season to find replacements because all of the suitable replacements in the CL had been used and foreign riders were either unwilling to come or unaffordable. It will be impossible for every team effectively to to find riders to add 4 points to the existing average team total. Even more so if any more teams decide to join the PL. In fact increasing to 46+ will deter any others from joining.

    • Like 2

  24. Posted

    I like all of the current BT team.  Yes, Tatum and Pearson can be a bit shouty at times but better that than the dull level commentary I hear elsewhere. I think that Natalie Quirke and Scott Nicholls add  knowledgeable  pre and post meeting comments and analysis of the races. My only suggestion would be to add a second ex or current rider to the studio presentation who might give alternative opinions. 

    I don't watch other sports so have only seen the speedway events Eurosport has shown. I am pleased that there is a 5 year deal, I hope that there is a decent amount of money being paid and other than that, have an open mind and will wait and see the coverage before forming any opinions. 

    • Like 7

  25. Posted

    6 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

    True, but if you discount all those over 7 (other than those who already ride CL such as Cook, Masters, King etc) there are just 10 who almost certainly couldn't or wouldn't drop down. That's 20% of the PL rider strength. 

    I think its more a question of the CL points limit being high enough to include all those who could ride at that level. 

     

    4 minutes ago, poolebolton said:

    Well riders signed so far suggests to me that the limit will be high. 

    If the team points limit is increased in the CL, without a corresponding increase in the PL, the difference in standards between the two leagues would obviously diminish but so would the relative costs.

    However we look at it you do see many of the same riders in both leagues but PL teams have significantly more quality riders than CL teams.

    That isn't too say that the entertainment level is better in the PL. I regularly watch NDL meetings. They may not have the skills on display in the PL but nonetheless can provide excellent entertainment.

    • Like 1
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