waiheke1

gustix, on 21 Jan 2014 - 10:32 PM, said: At best, for a fast-changing sport like speedway in my opinion the nearest we can get is to have 'best eights' for 10 year periods. The value of these is that some riders will make the crossover between eras and this surely is of more value than an 'all time top eight riders' table. Something like this? Posted 18 months ago, so the 2010 list would change a bit now – but pleased that I got Tai in there! waihekeaces1, on 13 Jun 2012 - 11:39 PM, said: Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s. 60s Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden 70s Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey PlechP Crump 80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton Sigalos Knudsen 90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock Gollob Knudsen 2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock Sullivan Hampel 2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!) AD1974, on 22 Jan 2014 - 12:19 AM, said: It is impossible to include league performance or results from other qualifiers and internationals but in the Gundersen/Nielsen debate they surely suggest that Nielsen was a better rider don't they?! I disagree – I’m actually working on a sytsem to do exactly that - a ranking based on performances in the world final, qualifiers, internationals, league and BLRC. So far, I’ve just done 1981-1985, and the weightings need some tinkering, but it gives some interesting results. Purely for that period, you get a top five of: Based on single season peak 1 Penhall(81) 2, Nielsen (85) 3. Carter (82) 4. Gundersen (83) 5. Lee (83) Based on average of best three seasons 1 Penhall (two seasons only) 2 Nielsen 3 gundersen 4 Carter 5 S Moran Based on cumulative scores over that period 1 Nielsen 2Gundersen 3 Carter 4 S Moran 5 Knudsen I hope to do the same for all seasons (I did a similar thing for 2013), but is dependent on having free time to do so. sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:38 AM, said: Forget the pairs team events, Lee had a better world final record than Collins, he had six finals he was on the rostrum x2 a winner once and a fourth place.Collins had eight appearances a winner once ( very unlucky in 77) but Lee was unlucky in 83 i believe he was the best rider in the world that year on stats Lee is the better in my book.Certainly on the WF record also i know Lee was finished after 83 but he was up there easily with Nielsen,Erik,Sigalos, Penhall a new generation Peter was finished really by 80/81as a possible winner. But why forget those events – just because PC had a better record? Lee’s record in world finals was marginally better than PC granted (better average, i’d say a gold and two bronze is fractionally better than a gold and two silver, though PC deserves credit for making more finals), but in every other respect PC’s record was better. 83 stats would suggest Lee was the third best in the world, behind Hans and Eric, though at his peak that season he was unstoppable (THAT demolition of Carter!). He only made the rostrum in the final due to Hans puncture though. The argument that can be made in faour of Lee is not what he did achieve (PC’s achievement IMHO dwarf Lees) but what he could have achieved. when he rode that last final at Norden, he was roughly the same age as PC, Erik and Tai when they won their first titles, and younger than Penhall and Hans. gustix, on 27 Jan 2014 - 08:19 AM, said: I thought you would have heard of the leading website - The Speedway Researcher? Yes I am acquainted with that excellent site– however those war time meetings weren’t listed in the “special” section along with the 46-48 British Riders Champs or the World Champs, hence my query. Thanks to you and Norbold for your responses, I’ve now located them, and will peruse when I have time. sidney, on 29 Jan 2014 - 09:49 AM, said: An impressive list Andy, am chuffed Lee is in front of Collins and Penhall agree with all of them except Pedersen he would not get in my 16. I think Nicki has to be regarded as one of the top 16 of all time. You can’t fluke three world titles under the GP system that he has ridden under, in at least one of those seasons he was indisputably the best rider across all competitions. Nicki seems to be the most under rated multi world champ of all time. That said, he doesn’t make my own top dozen.

Can you name a year under the old world final system in which the host nation wasn't given at least one slot in the final? Or name one final in the 80s which didnt contain a number of sub standard finalists who qualified through virtue of their nstionality? Who would you say was better, starostin ondrssik, adjoran and kroeze or harris louis nicholls and lindgren?

Jason bunyan has the record for nz titles, but I have some doubts as to whether he is the best kiwi of all time

true, but it was also well below the standard of the 70s and 80s. i'd imagine he will be regarded alongside the likes of Doncaster, Harris and Nicholls, rather than your Morts, Louis or Simmons, let alone the PCs, Lee etc.

You observed that he is not included in peoples lists of top 12 brits. I explsined why.

Dlete duplicate Who topped englands test averages in 82, scoring 27 points more than any other englishman v usa (and more than penhall or sigalos) and topping the scoring v denmsrk despite missing one of the three meetings? Who scored a maximum in the wtc as england got eliminated? Who finished on the podium of every world final quslifying round? Who topped the bl averages that season with over 11, a mark neither lee mort s moran sigalos or sanders ever achieved? Who won the blrc with a maximum in 82, again a feat none of those u name acieved? Ill give u a clue - its a rider who in six league and cup clashes that season was not beaten once by pc.I respect your opinion sid, but to suggest that carter was not the best brit by a mile in 1982 is ludicrous.

Along with mort my favourite british rider of all time. But not close to the top dozen britss of all time or even the modern era.

Along with mort my favourite british rider of all time. But not close to the top dozen britss of all time or even the modern era.

Exactly. LA in 82 would be my guess.

Which of say the last ten world finals do u reckon had a bigger attendsnce than cardiff 2013?

Really? What do u reckon was the attendance at those meetings in yhe the late 80s and early 90s.I dont dispute the quality, used to love those meetings.

I think this is possibly the optimum format, if reserves are to be totally segregated from heat leaders. Every rider meets each opposition rider (excepting HL vs Res) at least once, and no rider has consecutive rides, nor does any rider meet the same opposition rider in each heat. Downside is it pretty much gets rid of the concept of riding in “pairs” . I tried to get the second string vs reserve heats out of the way early in the meeting, to reduce the chance of these being used as easy “double point” heats, assuming that that ruke remain in effect. Perhaps it could be restricted to after heat 7, but usable in any heat after that (including heat 15?). Home Away ht1 2 6 4 7 ht2 4 7 2 6 ht3 1 5 3 4 ht4 3 4 1 5 ht5 2 7 2 7 ht6 1 3 1 3 ht7 4 6 4 6 ht8 2 5 3 5 ht9 6 7 6 7 ht10 3 5 2 5 ht11 6 7 6 7 ht12 1 5 1 5 ht13 3 4 3 4 ht14 1 2 1 2 Under this format, I’d expect your average number 1 to average around 8.8, other heat leaders and second strings around 6 points, reserves around 4.25. Obviously with a variance of around +/2 points in each position. Now given that the average heat leader (exc number ones) starts on around 6.9 and the average second string an average of 4.75, that indicates a difference of difficulty of over 2 points between the rides a second string has and those a heatleader has. Some teams this will “even out” as riders will shuffle between HL and 2nd string slots, but at KL it’s quite possible there will be no such movement, so Lambert and Porsing could end with quite inflated averages. Edited: I can't seem to copy and paste the format into nice columns from the excel file, and have deleted the example with rider names as cannot seem to get that to show in tidy columns either.

I agree lee was the best brit in 83, ahead of Carter and morton. In 82 though, carters best season, who do u think was close to him? In 81 he was top brit in bl averages, world final and blrc champ.

Phil - what do fim do with the money bsi psy them?

Nt everything from the gp series goes to bsi though. There is the monry they pay to fim - surely what happens to that money is the more pertinent question

Carter was indisputably the best british rider in 82 and 85 and possibly 81. You omitted his two british titles, one on a broken leg.engine failure at wembley, the fall in la - id say he only undrlerachieved in norden to be fair, though he was still only a point behind lee.

Going for the same era (mid 70s onwards with an exception for craven?) I'd go for a similar list but swap out wyer tstum and davis for tai simmons and the mighty mort. Cant argue with the first 12, snd understand your reason for omitting tai (and presume similat logic governd omisiion of havelock). Carter is the interesting omission for me, I certainly would rank him ahead of the likes of ashby and boocock who with all due respect were never close to being the best rider in the world.

I was just about to post a similar thing. I didnt watch a lot of t Rick, but from memory in both the 91 and 94 finals he needed to do a lot from the back. Was he, like olsen, a rider who's gating improved a lot over his career, to the extent that he becsme a lot less exciting to wstch as an increasing numbet of his victories came from the tspes?

A point that has already been raised multiple times on the thread. One way to stop this would be to use the official 2013 greensheets for any team redeclarations.

Kenny bjerre (the original stalkee) and batch are still here. Dakota north been scared off?

I think it is unlikely that they would keep the second strings from racing the heat leaders. The format you suggest would hugely skew 2nd string averages - riders like ljung or worrall could average more than tai or ward under that format.

Carter penhall sudden sam the morans lee pc and mort andy smith jan o declan eccles - the great entrrtainers of the 80s. Today id say darcy and emil . Also tai and gollob (still)

I think it is unlikely that they would keep the second strings from racing the heat leaders. The format you suggest would hugely skew 2nd string averages - riders like ljung or worrall could average more than tai or ward under that format.

Sid - any readon u went 69-80 instead of 70-79. If it was jyst the 70s id replace jessup with plech. Colin - davis?!? Wouldnt be in my top 10 brits of the era let alone top 10 overall?

In order; Mauger Olsen Pc Michanek Lee Jessup Simmons Louis Autrey Crump