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waiheke1

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Posts posted by waiheke1

  5. Posted

    22 hours ago, falcace said:

    ...and I bet Louis Carr "absolutely destroyed" Mike Lee in heat 10 :wink:

    And who would've thought Andy Campbell would be the Aces' star signing two years on?

    Thanks. Here's a beaut of a picture from heat 1..

    DZVH--YU0AE3qQA.jpg

    Funny you should say that, handwritten in my programme from the 1982 meeting vs Kings Lynn is "L Carr destroyed Lee" after a ht8 (I think) victory.

    And that is a cracking photo, I have memories of Lee that season being unbelievably quick on occasion. Larry and Louis were a great 1-2 pairing for the Aces. 

    As for the Andy Campbell signing, I think that was the worst of the Bamford era (ahead of Crang and Ingels - of all the Americans to sign, why the one who couldn't ride big tracks! - who were both in the same season)

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  6. Posted

    In major meetings that season, I make it 5-2 to Lee. 

    Nielsen beating Lee in both meetings in the world championship, but Lee beating Nielsen twice in the test, twice in the BLRC and beating him again in the WTC Final.

    Interesting though H2H results are, I'm always a little skeptical as to how meaningful they are, especially over such a low population (as opposed to today, where top GP riders will meet each other 15-20 times in the GPS alone.)

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  7. Posted

    5 hours ago, arnieg said:

    Possibly the best ever thread on this forum was the one about who would have been world champion in each of the seasons pre 1994 had they used a GP format. And 1983 was the one year that caused us most trouble with no real consensus and few strongly held views in favour of anyone.

    Yep, great discussion, and agreed on 83. Half a dozen candidates, though realistically I find it hard to see past Nielsen or Lee, possibly Siggy. But then Gundersen did win the BLRC so maybe could have done enough; and if KC was not recovering from the immense disappointment of LA, maybe his season would have been different; and if they'd run it on genuine race tracks maybe Mort would have been in the running for the podium; or maybe Billy could have lifted himself for the big meetings as he tended to do on world final night;  still Hans from Lee for me though...

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  8. Posted

    And in case you were interested Sid, Aces vs Sheffield 1/10/83

    Golden Helmet:

    1. Morton Lee 67.9

    2. Lee  Morton 67.1

    3. Lee Morton 68.7

    Aces vs Sheffield:

    Ht1: Lee L Carr Ross P White fell 69.3   3-3

    ht 5: Lee P Carr D Morton P Collins Fell 70.0 (Collins fell L4 while leading) 15-15

    ht8: Lee Wilson L Carr Smith 70.4   23-25

    ht11: Lee Morton Bargh Smith 70.2  35-31

    ht 13: Lee P Collins G Short C Morton ef D Morton ex tapes 70.4 Morton ef L3 while in second  42-36

    Lee 15 point maximum 

    (Meeting a double-header; Aces vs Birmingham followed, with Nielsen scoring 13, beaten twice by Mort)

     

  9. Posted

    On 7/29/2022 at 3:07 PM, Sidney the robin said:

    You must of seen Mike plenty of times at White City over the years Steve? i was fortunate anough to see him ride quite often.Have acquired quite alot of the 1983 footage of Michael and it still gives me great pleasure in seeing him reinvent himself after the 81/82 disaster seasons( a great 81 Longtrack victory though).

    Have to say, 81 Lee was not as bad as some have made out. Disappointing compared to 79/80, but arguably still one of the top 5 riders in the world and Long track champ. 82 Lee was considerably worse...

  10. Posted

    On 7/31/2022 at 5:03 AM, falcace said:

    Hmmm...ok. Either you form an opinion based on credible evidence and facts or you don't.

    Waiheke1 had already mentioned Andy Smith beating Lee in 83. And I'm sure there are other examples of lesser riders beating Nielsen that year. But the bigger picture and the facts show Hans Nielsen consistently scored more points than any other rider that year and finished it as the BL no1, Intercontinental Champion, Nordic Champion, WTC winner, World Pairs bronze. Mike Lee had a very good year. But he won nowt. 

    Worth a look at a title deciding big race between the two in 83....if there is any "blowing away" to be done, Nielsen is not the one on the receiving end....

     

    For what it's worth, I think the bigger loss to the sport post 83 was Dennis Sigalos....a real class act. With a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen, he was nearing his peak. And unlike Lee, his loss to the sport wasn't self inflicted.  I think he had the skill, talent, professionalism to be in there with Nielsen and Gundersen fighting for the big prizes throughout the 80s, had he not suffered a career ending injury.

    Agree a big loss and clearly world class. Was he hard/ruthless enough to be World Champion is maybe the question mark, clearly he had the talent? 

  11. Posted

    21 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

    I certainly agree with you Falcace on the Siggy assumption he was a class act and would of been a threat to the Danes.Also don’t forget Billy the kid he was approaching his peak before his passing and had really pushed on in his career.Back to Lee yes of course most of his problems were of his own doing but was also pushed along the way with the help of a few vindictive people within the speedway circle.If times had of been different we COULD of had a period of a fit/ Stable Carter, a motiavated Lee, Siggy, Billy, Erik, Hans all pushing for glory it was not to be.1983 was a very good season for me enjoyed it very much even though the Swindon Robins had a dreadful team shocking really.

    Add Penhall to that list. And K Moran and Muller if they had taken the sport a little more seriously...

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  12. Posted

    On 7/29/2022 at 11:39 PM, falcace said:

    Lee was good in 1983. Very good. And at times, downright brilliant. I don't think he was the best rider in the world that year. That was probably Hans Nielsen. But he was back in the mix for sure and it would have been much more interesting having a motivated Lee, an active Penhall, a fit and stable Carter and a fit Sigalos around for a few more years to challenge and possibly beat Gundersen and Nielsen. 

    Would agree with this. My stat ratings (which I'd like to update with a slightly revised methodology if I ever get time) had Nielsen top in 83, followed by Eric, Siggy then Lee. I suspect in a GP series Hans would have taken the title with Lee second. 

    The rankings had Siggy third in the world in 82&83, 4th in 84 in a significantly curtailed season (Lee 5th). 

  13. Posted

    Belle Vue V Poole 19 June 1983

     

    Belle Vue - Peter Collins 12, Chris Morton 10, Louis Carr 8, Larry Ross 7, Kenny McKinna 5, Peter Carr 4, Andy Smith 3

     

    Poole - John Davis 10, Michael Lee 9, Kevin Smith 4, Vaclav Verner 3, Erik Stenlund 1, Neil Middleditch 1, Andy Campbell 0

     

    Ht 01: Lee, L.Carr, Stenlund, Ross (ef) 70.2 (2-4)

    Ht 02: McKinna, Verner, Campbell (ef), A.Smith (ef) 71.8 (5-6)

    Ht 03: Collins, K.Smith, Middleditch, P.Carr (ef) 70.2 (8-9)

    Ht 04: Morton, Davis, McKinna, Campbell (ef) 70.4 (12-11)

    Ht 05: Collins, Lee, P.Carr, Stenlund 69.8 (16-13)

    Ht 06: Ross, Davis, L.Carr, Verner 71.0 (20-15)

    Ht 07: Morton, K.Smith, McKinna, Middleditch (f exc) 69.4 (24-17)

    Ht 08: Davis, L.Carr, Verner, A.Smith 72.2 (26-21)

    Ht 09: Collins, P.Carr, Davis, Verner (f exc) 71.4 (31-22)

    Ht 10: L.Carr, Lee, Ross, K.Smith 71.4 (35-24)

    Ht 11: A.Smith, Morton, Lee, K.Smith 72.4 (40-25)

    Ht 12: Ross, Davis, P.Carr, K.Smith 71.0 (44-27)

    Ht 13: Collins, Morton, Lee, Middleditch 71.2 (49-28)

  14. Posted · Edited by waiheke1

    I'll have the Aces v Poole result at home, will dig it out when back from holidays. I do remember Andy Smith passing him in heat 11 to join Mort for a 5-1

    Also remember him scoring a flawless 15 point maximum as a guest for Sheffield at Hyde Rd that season

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  22. Posted

    Pretty original at belle vue: 

    PC - Peter Collins

    Mort/Mighty Mort: Chris Morton

    Jimmy Mac: Jimmy McMillan

    The Racing Car: Peter Carr

    Carl "Bye Bye" Blackbird

    Barry "Baz" Ayres

    And perhaps the only one with a hint of creativity:

    Smudger and  foxy/foxy? - Andy Smith

  23. Posted

    On 6/16/2022 at 3:17 AM, chunky said:

    The problem is that you can't get your head around the fact that it is not "seeding". Look, let's take darts. The bulk of the World Championship field is made up from the rankings. In other words, players battle it out over a number of tournaments during the year, and get points based on their performances. Fair? The GP is just the same. Riders compete not only tp be World Champion, but to QUALIFY for the following year.

    When you have a series lasting several months, it os virtualli impossible - and unfair - to introduce various qualification systems on top of the main qualification system

    Countless examples: tennis, golf, snooker all based on rankings. F1 is effectively 100% wildcard. 

    Most team sports, participation in a league is based on performance the previous year. Cricket and rugby World cups, many teams qualify based on rankings or previous tournament performance. 

  24. Posted

    26 minutes ago, iris123 said:

    You'll have to point out which quali meetings Briggo rode in ,in 1958 

    I also am finding it difficult to find Fundin in the Nordic, Continental or European Finals in 1957

    Or Peter Collins in the British final in 77...or penhall in the American final in 85...or the years there was no rider from the host country in the world final...

  25. Posted

    1 hour ago, customhouseregular said:

    Is this a daft idea?…Top 8 after 20 heats race 2 A semis and an A Final. Points scored 16 down to 9. Bottom 8 after 20 heats race 2 B semis and a B Final. Points scored 9 down to 1. Points scored in the heats discarded. 

    Just have A-D finals. I prefer every point counting, but if the organisers are fixed on the current point system, that's what I would be inclined to go with. 

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