waiheke1
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Posts posted by waiheke1
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5 hours ago, Speedtiger said:Thanks again you learn something new every day. So tell me why does it show (£630,000) on the 2020 accounts then, what does that refer two.?
Do you have a copy of these accounts, or link to them?
Edit: found them
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19 minutes ago, arnieg said:But that would still suggest a company that has probably lost in excess of £600k in the last five years.
Assuming they didn't take over any debts from the previous promotion?
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I think there are plenty of examples: Shaun Moran at Sheffield or Ipswich; in 83 the world champions would have been different anywhere bar Norden - Mike Lee would have been favourite at Poole or Kings Lynn, Sigalos or Sanders at Ipswich;
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5 hours ago, E I Addio said:Barry Briggs once said that to be World Champion you had to string 5 decent starts together. Mort and Booey were lucky if they could string two or three good starts together. It didn’t show at league level because most riders were average gaters and they could both come through from the back, but is a different kettle of fish at World Final level, missing the gate when race after race after face you have Mauger , Briggs , Fundin , etc or riders of that standard who dont exactly wave you through. I don’t think home track advantage makes much difference at that level.
There were one or two exceptions perhaps but they were very rare.Tbf,Mort won a BLRC, which was a better calibre field than the world final.
But more likely to be a world champ if the final was held at Hyde Rd, or the Shay, would be Kenny Carter
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5 hours ago, steve roberts said:Just started reading the book having received it as a present.
Showing potential as a light read...hoping that it gets more controversial as I delve deeper!
Also got it for Christmas. Nearly finished it, doesn't really progress beyond "light read." Arguably the most controversial bit is the foreword from PC...
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1 hour ago, PotteringAround said:That was a Friday as the Aces were away at Coventry on the Saturday
Missing a Friday meeting makes sense, as we'd have had to travel down from Huddersfield after my dad had finished work. Suspect we went to the Coventry meeting on the Saturday instead.
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1 hour ago, PotteringAround said:It was a very cold Sunday afternoon in November 1985.
Thanks. Normally we still made the Sunday meetings at Hyde Rd, will have to ask my parents why they didn't take me to this one
Also missed the Peter Craven meeting in the same year (won by Andy Smith) for some reason as well.
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On 12/19/2021 at 9:53 PM, Bruiser said:I was at the Belle Vue one…didn’t they have the big mudguard on the bikes and a lot of them fell off ?
For some reason I missed this meeting. Was it held on a different night to the usual Saturday meeting? Was it this meeting that Penhall was a no -show?
The meeting's available on dvd from Jan Steachmann.
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17 hours ago, falcace said:I'll forgive you
Always reckon Phil and Les are a closer match than most would suggest. Sure, Les had some standout individual success, particularly in 82. But Phil was a better rider for England than Les.
Les on top form was truly world class (add the 80 BLRC to his 82 performances). From 83-86 Phil was the better rider though ( and Les was arguably surpassed by Neil as well from 85), with thr highlight being the overseas title win in the wet.
I see your point, but to me there is no question that they rank Peter, Les, Phil, Neil, Stephen. If there's a question mark, it's whether Neil's longevity places him ahead of Phil (personally, I'd say not).
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21 hours ago, prodons said:What’s amazing is that incredibly Hans and Erik’s averages continued to rise in 1985 to 10,38 and 11.35 respectively. (Apologies for going massively off-topic)
For the VERY top riders, the number of teams didn't really make a difference, as they would beat pretty much everyone anyway (and of course Eric's 84 average was artificially low due to his initial struggles to adapt to the new tape rules). Hans and Eric both increased averages again in 86.
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7 hours ago, falcace said:Courtney was 84 though. I think the big problem was that he didn't pull his weight in some narrow away losses. Really, Aces should have won the league that year, they were the strongest team. They were smashing teams at home all year. Didn't know Ingels had some success....good for him
Yeah sorry wasn't clear. Courtney did drop around a point (?) off his average in 84, but that was still enough to have made him a heat leader in most teams. (In 85 when he joined KL he dropped another 2 to become a sub 6pt second string). The issue was, as you say, his away form (see also Larry, Andy and Peter Carr). At home they smashed teams - with the exception of the Premiership at home to Cradley (Finn Jensen!!!) and was it the league Cup or ko Cup against Ipswich?
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1 hour ago, falcace said:Massive. In fact worth speculating that we would never have had the Morans. Sam would've been our spearhead through to the 90s.
Same issue with Ingels as Campbell. Promising year at Newcastle in 1984...but again was in a small pond. Out of his depth at Belle Vue. Wonder what came of him?
He went back to the states and won a few North california titles.
I think people often under estimate the difference in strength between a top flight of 17 teams and a top flight of 11 teams, which was the shift from 84 to 85. It meant weaker heat leaders became second string quality, and second strings became reserve standard.
Arguably that's what happenned to Courtney, Campbell and Ingels in 85.
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4 hours ago, falcace said:I think both Courtney and Blackbird lacked the application...both very able though. Andy Campbell had a really good 1984 with Exeter, but it was a lot different being a big fish in a small pond than riding at no1 for the Aces. On paper all looked good signings....but didn't work out that way. The same year, Aces were in for Sam Ermolenko when he was out of British Speedway, but I think were put off by the terms. We got Eddie Ingels instead!
Was just going to mention that - of all the Americans, we signed the one who couldn't ride Hyde Rd....
How different it could have been had we signed Sam for the latter half of the 85 season, or for the 86 season, on a bargain average.
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11 hours ago, falcace said:Yep. Stuart Bamforth is remembered as the man who sold Hyde Road....there are more layers to the story than that of course. But you couldn't accuse him of not trying to win with Belle Vue. He spent big on Mark Courtney, Carl Blackbird, Andy Campbell and Paul Thorp in a short space of time....and they were all the right riders to buy - at that time, they were all really promising English riders. Thorpy worked out the best. Blackbird and Courtney could and should have done better. But Andy Campbell, you could tell he tried really hard, but he just wasn't cut out to make it at the higher level.
Mostly agreed, though not sure he bought the right riders - for example Tatum went to Coventry in 85 for roughly the same price as Campbell went to the Aces. Similarly Neil Evitts and Neil Collins could potentially have been picked up instead of Courtney for a similar fee, and on lower averages.
Thorp was definitely a good signing, and as you say the pick of the bunch.
Courtney was very good round Hyde Rd, very disappointing away, but still averaged close to 8 in his one season. The issue iirc was attitude, certainly not ability, and he dropped a coupole more points off his average after leaving the Aces.
Blackbird also seemed a good signing, had a superb 1986, and was surprising that he didn't kick on. Was it a lack of investment in equipment?
Campbell I have to admit I'm biased against (as he replaces my all time favourite Ace), but it just never seemed a good signing. The Aces could have kept one of Ross/Courtney/P Carr, all of whom had vastly superior records round Hyde Rd, and at least the latter two seemed to have much more potential. It just never worked out - recall Bammy saying something like he thought he was signing a heat leader (pretty sure Campbell rode at number 1 in his first meetings, so he was obviously envisages as Larry's successor in that role) but instead he got a good reserve.
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On 12/18/2021 at 3:33 AM, prodons said:Seems harsh to tar Andy Campbell with the same brush as Bernie Collier and Mark Crang but I agree with the overall sentiment.
Whereas Collier and Crang were NL reserves at best, Campbell on his day was an NL heat leader and a BL second string.
We expected him to be our star signing back in 1988 but it didn’t quite work out that way.
My point in including Andy Campbell wasn't to compare ability wise with Collier or Crang. If I included only the latter two however, it would seem I was basing eligibility only on ability/points contribution. Rather someone like Campbell, who rode only one season in Aces colours, should also imo not be entitled to free life time admittance to Belle Vue.
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6 hours ago, moxey63 said:If you gave Tesco 16 years' service, entertained customers and made them come back for more... won a world title... lost a world title after shattering your leg on a sharp bit of trolley the store left in your way, needing 200 stitches, but didn’t claim compo... shattered your arm after fall on the soaking wet Tesco floor because you were forced to work in those conditions, and the injury meaning you couldn’t stack shelves as fast as before... then yes, shopping should be free.
Yes. But PC WAS offerred free admission. My understanding is his grievance is he felt that ALL former riders should have been offerred the same (I.e the response analogy offerred by falcace).
I don't believe anyone would disagree with genuine legends like PC and Mort being given lifetime free admission.
But should the same apply to say - and with no disrespect intended- Marc Crang or Andy Campbell or Bernie Collier?
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On 12/3/2021 at 3:59 AM, chunky said:What is confusing about my question, Mr Hyam?
Suspect he is confused because your question SHOULD have been, why is Mike Bast not in the 70s list...
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4 hours ago, falcace said:Yep,, as much as I'd like to see Mort in the top 10, I've no great argument with that. A very plausible top 10.
Yeah, I'd still have Mort on basis of longevity if I was submitting my own subjective list, probably ahead of Sam. Similarly I'd have Lee ahead of Carter on the basis of his world title.
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7 hours ago, lucifer sam said:No Jan O Pedersen during the 1980s or 1990s?
World Champion in 1991, World No 2 in 1986 and World 3 in 1988.
Rode in the World Pairs Final twice... and won it twice! Rode in the World Team Cup Final four times... and won it four times!
Throw in a BLRC (1988) and various honours with Cradley Heath and surely he should be in there for both decades.
Should be in there for both decades, absolutely
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On 12/4/2021 at 8:50 PM, falcace said:Cheers! It's good work...but I'm still not clear on the criteria? Are British Finals and Swedish Finals given equal "ranking points"? Are Swedish League and British League given equal ranking points? Even to my admittedly biased eyes, this still looks like Mort had a notably better record in the 80s? Also how is Phil Crump no8 in the 80s with just one World Final?
the only metric Andersson out performs Mort is performance in world finals. Outside that, Mort won BLRC, inter-continental, world Pairs and WTC titles and had a better BL record.
And there is no metric at all which would place Phil Crump in the top ten riders of the 80s, unless we limit to league performances at Blunsdon Rd, or Overseas finals held at Hyde Rd in years ending with an even number...
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On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, BL65 said:
2010s: 1. Greg Hancock 2. Tai Woffinden 3. Bartosz Zmarzlik 4. Tomasz Gollob 5. Nicki Pedersen 6. Emil Sayfutdinov 7. Jason Doyle 8. Jaroslaw Hampel 9. Chris Holder 10. Fredrik LingdgrenNot much to disagree on the list, though I'd have Ward,Jonsson or Puk ahead of Freddie, but I'd definitely change the order around. I'd suggest:
1 Woffy 2. Hancock 3. Zmarzlik 4. Doyle 5. Hampel 6. Pedersen 7. Gollob 8. Sayfutdinov 9. Holder 10. Ward
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On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 AM, BL65 said:
1970s: 1. Ivan Mauger, 2. Ole Olsen, 3. Anders Michanek 4. Peter Collins 5. Phil Crump 6. Barry Briggs 7. Ray Wilson 8. Martin Ashby 9. Malcolm Simmons 10. John Louis
I'd definitely have PC ahead of Michanek in 3rd. Mike Lee - arguably the best rider in the world in '79- needs to be in there, certainly ahead of Louis. And can't see a good argument for Briggo being on the list.
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On 12/7/2021 at 10:57 PM, Nickinho said:I agree. Michael Lee in his prime was the most successful of the two but Kenny was the more natural rider imo.
Never was Kenny a more natural rider than Mike Lee. Mike Lee was, along with Darcy Ward, the best natural talent of the last 50 years imo. Don't get me wrong, Kenny was the best visting rider I saw around Hyde Rd, and there are few who would compare for speed or determination, but there are plenty of riders I'd argue had more natural talent than him - Kelly Moran, PC, Emil, etc.
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No way, by any metric, was Phil Crump top 10 of the 1980s – the only seasons he would have been in the top 10 in the world were 81 and 84, so not even close to the top ten for the decade.
Disagree also with Andersson, Wigg and probably Sanders.
For me it’s Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen as a clear top three; then Lee, Carter, S Moran; then four from Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko, Morton and Jessup (and maybe Sanders). Jessup is an odd one in that he was the best rider in the world in 1980, a top ten rider in 1981 (where but for ef he likely would have landed a second consecutive silver medal) – but not world class after that. Morton is the opposite, consistent throughout the decade.
If I refer back to season by season rankings I did a few years back, then the top ten riders based on their best five seasons across the decade were (and noting Penhall rode only in three seasons): Nielsen, Penhall, Gundersen, Carter, S Moran, Lee, Knudsen, Sigalos, Jan O, Ermolenko. That list would have Morton (11th), Andersson (13th), Sanders (14th), Crump (17th), Wigg (19th).
If you were to base the list on top three seasons (i.e. rewarding “peak performance”) the only change to the riders in the top ten is Jessup in for Ermolenko.
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Belle Vue 2022
in SGB Premiership Speedway League
Posted
Actually, that does sound about right, given the net liabilities increased by around 115k in the last financial year. Not sure to what extent covid will have impacted profitability?