Grand Central

This is exemplifies why the original question was justified; and why some of the facetious responses were a little unworthy. There is not just one type of APD just like there was not just one type of wire mesh or one type of board fence. If we are to progress on to find better and more safe alternatives then work on research into the various types needs to be ongoing. Statistics need to be collated and analysed; as do accident reports. To just say air fences are safer that seventies death- trap fences doesn't move us forward. My layman's observations are that there is a wide variation in the performance of different APDs at different track upon different types of impact. Some APD seem to bounce into the air quite freely when hit by a machine and the following fallen rider then disappears under it and smashes into whatever is behind. At other tracks they seem to remain more stable even with multiple impacts and continue to offer protection after the initial hit. Some tracks seem to have attached their APD to a high grade fence that will still 'catch' the rider who goes under the APD whilst others seem to have just hung their's on the lethal-looking Stock Car girders. One of things about H&S is that it needs to be be continually re-evaluated in light of real experience. Just saying 'we bought an air fence in 2005 so we are sorted' is simply not good enough. .

Just to put my two penneth in. I think you are talking at cross purposes. SCB is OK with the run-off series to determine the positions within the top 3. But he feels that the rules only meant for the run-off series to declare the two qualifiers. The other three non qualifiying riders involved in the run-off should then have their positioning determined by the countback procedure NOT by their positions in the run-offs. It would be a bit odd to finish 'third' in the run offs for qualifying place but be lower down the list of non-qualifying reserves But it is SCB's argument that this is what the rules stated should occur. And they didn't. I can see the point SCB is making.

Sadly, this is so, so true.

Oh God it's Ermolenko. 3 hours of Speedway on mute. NOT how I was hoping to spend Saturday night.

We know! That was the whole point of the thread. And was reiterated in my post.

I added Coventry up to five but had forgotten about the couple of matches that Ronnie Moore rode. But you have missed JACK YOUNG. That makes it six for the Bees.

If the criterion is having a World Champion ride for them at ANY time. Wolverhampton, Newcastle and Hull have 4 each, Coventry 5 that sprang to mind Then I make it that Cradley have six Penhall, Gundersen, Pedersen, Hancock, Hamill, and Michanek. Belle Vue are on seven Craven, Fundin, Mauger, Collins, Ermolenko, Crump, Hamill But POOLE have eight that I can think of Hancock, Lee, Havelock, Rickardsson, Crump, Loram, Ermolenko, Holder .

Yes great explanation of lots of points from Arthur Cross. The last couple of paragraphs are particularly resonant to me. I agree entirely that 'us AB' people are very much at home with activities and venues that actually are 'quite C2DE'. Much more than the other way round. It feels like quite a generational thing to me. And there is no doubt Speedway does LOOK 'quite C2DE' in many ways. Lots of which are actually fairly unchangeable. Frankly at our best, with all our bib-and-tucker at the Millennium Stadium we still don't come across as the Ascot-set. And i don't think the sport ever could. But in this world perceptions are often much more powerful than facts.

I agree on all counts. But I've always felt that Knudsen lacked the good fortune to have Frank Ebdon in the box in Katowice in '86 like Sam did in Pocking. Not that he was in a great position to win the meeting but that took any chance away. Hans move in Heat 15 in Poland was every bit as bad as the one that got him excluded in Germany.

Yes, I agree. It is just that the whole population has changed at the same time. All my friends, and me, are the sons and daughters of C1 or C2 parents. Twenty five years later most of those parents are gone and we are dotted all over the country (and world) living completely different lives. Most of us would be classified as B or A. A few if us continue to attend Speedway and I figure our 'improved' status will never have been measured by any statistic connected to the sport. But that's just it some of us ARE doing those things. This year like the last few I have been to Royal Ascot, Henley Regatta, Buckingham Palace Coronation Event, Lords T20 match, several visits to the theatre in London and one Black Tie Open Air Opera.. In addition Cardiff for the GP and several trips to domestic Speedway at 4 venues. I am not 'blowing my own Trumpet' here. Just trying to show that this IS what the world is like. And I don't think I am alone. PS. Iam now skint..

As you say, I would expect Sky to have done that research about their viewers. But have you, or anyone else, any information on the results that it produced? Similarly, I don't think we have by results of studies into the social class of people who do attend meetings. Because, to my knowledge, no studies appear to have been done. I know we many LOOK 'low rent' with our autistic-like obsessions and, for some, lamentable fashion sense. But is there any true information out there or are we just repeating the perceived 'wisdom' without factual basis?

Yes, he was stunning that night especially his win from the back against Bobby Schwartz to get his maximum. In fact, I saw him net brilliant big-track maximums at The Shay and a stonking 18-pointer at Belle Vue earlier in 1985 and thought that could well be his year. But at Odsal, just a few weeks after Long Beach, he could barely win a race except against the ho-hopers when he was well out of the running. Actually he was quite the big disappointment at Odsal that day.

It has been commented on before that there has been so very little market research done into Speedway. So it just makes me wonder if the classification of Speedway fans being C2DE is actually correct. My parents and their friends who attended in the fifties to seventies were just about unanimously C1 or C2. Due our education, profession and positions of responsibilty in the work place; Me, and just about all my personal friends, could only be described as B or possibly A (for the one that drives an SLK). I fear that we may ALL just LOOK like the 'great unwashed' purely BECAUSE we attend Speedway.

Yes you are probably spot on about JanO that day. That first race win WAS the eyebrow raiser but as you say the early gate one advantage was strong. Sam Ermolenko was certainly THE surprise packet that day, no doubt. Kai Niemi was just some strange enigma, though. He was part under-rated by many and then also part an under-achiever as well! Having spent a couple of years following Wimbledon whilst at University one had become well versed with his ways and I remember he did score well in the re-opening World Team match at Odsal earlier in the year. So he was less surprising to me. The Yanks, after their performances in the Overseas at Odsal, I think we all expected more of them. Shooey's failure being particularly disappointing; but I was never a King fan so his score sort of passed me by at the time.

No pedantry is fine. Of course he wasn't in the run-off for the title in 1988, I really didn't write that very well at all. You are probably right about the 1985 Final; perhaps it was just me and my Dad that were a little surprised by his performance that day. But I do remember us chatting about it in those terms at Odsal that afternoon. Better than Sam or not? That's an interesting question as I had not really ever thought of them in a 'match-up'.. Instinctively I would put JanO ahead. But if i thought about it little longer and looked facts and figures up I might change that! I went to each of their World Final wins and there is no doubt that while JanO did not face a very distinguished field at Ullevi; he did smash them to pieces. Sam had a rather average afternoon at Pocking and managed to come away as champion. I had followed Wolves around a fair bit in 1991 and Sam had been absolutely phenominal on many occasions that year. So taking all his injuries into account it just seemed fair, and that a man of that talent deserved at least one title. Thinking back, yes I think Sam was 'worth' one title. JanO was probably 'worth' the odd one more.

Yes, in general true, But he had already done the hard part of qualifying for the finals in 1989 and 1990 via the Nordic route And Danes were actually not that plentiful in the those particular Finals. Realistically a fully fit JanO may well have had to settle for a Silver medal behind Hans at Munich. But at Odsal, of course, Hans was the lone Dane when JanO pulled out. Good final though it was most of the field was fairly beatable by someone with a little extra. Whether JanO would have had that without the off-track injury, who knows? Yes, that's true.

Yes, I'm always being told be sympathetic to the elderly! Jan O is just one of those people for whom the mention of his name always seems to remind one of the awful 'luck' he suffered And how differently his career may be viewed today but for those injuries. He is all-too often viewed as a on-time-charlie when nothing could be further from the truth. He had that unexpectedly strong World Final debut in 1985, second in 1986, so-so in 1987 and third after a run-off for the title in 1988. His title win in 1991 would look so much less isolated if, in 1989 and 1990, he had been allowed to perform at the finals for which had qualified. We could be remembering a two or three time champion and at the very least a man who could have had rostrum appearences five times. And perhaps so much more in the subsequent years. Except, of course, for injuries.

Simply bizarre! From memory I believe he qualified for both the 1989 AND 1990 World Finals only to suffer broken bones in his arm(s) just days before the finals and was forced withdraw from appearing at both Munich and Odsal.. Injuries, and right at the wrong time, were quite a feature of JanO's career and certainly a big reason why he was a one-time only winner. .

How intriguing. It is the crowd levels AT meetings that makes Sky unhappy. I fully understand that meetings like Monday at Peterborough look sad with such small crowd levels but the OB fees are paid by the subscribers ... And they were at home watching Sky! The Premier League matches featured so far have been just a two or three a year. It is their novelty value combined with local promotion that has kept the attendance up at each. All of which would have been true of he EL clubs if they had featured as sparingly. Why would the attendance at PL meetings, probably on 'off nights', hold up better when they become the staple fare? What a topsy-turvy sport we follow when the TV company WANT the 'second' division NOT the Elite. We really did waste all that extra Sky money giving it to the top riders for all those years, didn't we? .

Well. as it's Kelvin and Nigel who do the GP commentary and the same pair then present the EL show for Sky I would have thought it an interesting question to ask them about what are the 'team orders' at Sky. Does anyone know them well enough to 'pop that questtion', say, over lunch?

Goodness, Ales was certainly a happy Bunny.

Wasn't it just the simple case that the interviewer referred to Eurosport figures for SEC in Europe... 6M And Olsen was quoting a worldwide figure for SGP including figures for other broadcasters in addition to Eurosport... 12M

Absolutely right as the print out that Phil put up shows just how there even more add-ons than ever. These have to be totted up before you can call it a true price to compare to others. Minimising baggage to say one 15kg bag between two, deciding not to opt for reserved seating and using a debit card to book all reduce the additional charges. One of the things that the package travellers welcome, i suppose, is not having to go through that process. And then you can find, as here, that booking up to six months in advance can give you a worse deal than waiting until now to sort it! Quite infuriating.

That's the problem with budget airlines I suppose. Much cheaper flights available today than way back in April!

This is all very strange. I only looked at the prices to go Stansted to Bydgoszcz for the Torun GP with Ryanair earlier today. The decision we were pondering over was to pay £232 to go Friday and come back Monday. Or to have an extra night going on Thursday and coming back Monday which would work out a fair bit cheaper at £135. Taking one bag adds on £30. These prices are for TWO people return.