fatface

Yep,, as much as I'd like to see Mort in the top 10, I've no great argument with that. A very plausible top 10.

Agree. Still not clear on the criteria used. I can't see how Barry Briggs would qualify for the top 10 either on anything but sentiment. It's got to be a balance between results at the top level and consistency. All that said, one size won't fit all. The BL was the great indicator of a riders standing in the 70s and 80s. Couldn't say that for the last couple of decades.

Class act. I thought his best years were still ahead of him before the accident.

Cheers! It's good work...but I'm still not clear on the criteria? Are British Finals and Swedish Finals given equal "ranking points"? Are Swedish League and British League given equal ranking points? Even to my admittedly biased eyes, this still looks like Mort had a notably better record in the 80s? Also how is Phil Crump no8 in the 80s with just one World Final? Also, if a rider isn't competing at the top level anymore, can other riders catch them up in the latter part of the decade? On the latter for example, I would say at their absolute best Carter and Lee were a better rider than Morton. But over the course of the decade, there are years were he was better than them and other years (for differing reasons) where they were out of the picture with Mort was still at world class level. It's all good knockabout stuff of course. But it's also quite arbitrary. We humans like to think of things in decades, be in sport, music, culture...but it can skew the picture. Again, sticking with Mike Lee and add PC in there too...if you were looking at the 10 years from 1975-84, they would both - I suspect - rank higher.

Ditto. Worth knowing that Mort had more world final appearaces than anyone bar Nielsen and Gundersen in the 80s and won everything else worth winning during the decade... British Final, BLRC, World Pairs, WTC,, Intercontinental Final and in the BL, eight times in the top 10 averages, 5 times averaging over 10. I'd also wager he comfortably scored more test match points than any other England rider during the decade. What's the criteria? I'd be very surprised if some of the other names on the list have a better record than that.

It can be overlooked, but I think its the race where Penhall beats Olsen at Wembley and he gives Nielsen really short shrift on the first turn. And if he hadn't, Olsen could have been gone. It's the sort of move that really lets someone know they are in a World Final. Penhall was quick to learn these lessons...he got similar treatment from Lee the year before. Nielsen took longer to really get to grips with this type of riding in World Finals. But when he did, he started winning.

My pick would be Bruce Penhall. He cleaned up everything there was to win and did it in style too. And if we were talking about being the complete package, I think he has a stronger case than a few of those in the top 5. Crump, Hancock, Olsen, Gundersen all legitimate claims too....but also a couple of questions over whether they were the best in their own eras. Short as it was, Penhall was unquestionably the best of his. Disastrous it was at the time for the sport, but the timing of his retirement looks smarter and smarter as time goes on. Winning the title at the last ever final at Wembley, including winning two of the sport's most iconic races and defending it in his home city....well, it was never going to get any better than that for him was it? I think he had a few more titles in him, but somehow Norden, Bradford and Vojens just don't seem like the right stage for a rider who was the sport's last superstar.

100%. Great at his job as a promoter, but not a man to bring people together. He was sworn enemies with half of his fellow promoters and his tenures as England boss resulted in multiple fall outs. Just not the right fit. Though, to be honest, I am not sure if there has ever been the right person around..and if there ever was, if they had any brains, they got out of the sport pronto! All true. Sadly. Speedway will never adapt with the times....change will only come to speedway - as it always has - when change is forced upon it. And not in a good way.

Thanks Steve :-)

Thanks Steve. Be interested to see those. I went to the Belle Vue one and I know there were ones at Edinburgh, Poland, Germany, New Zealand...also USA possibly? Be interested to see any record of those.

England 50 Australia 28 1 Ray Wilson © 2 , 2 , 3 , 1 8 1 Phil Crump 3 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 2 13 2 Martin Ashby 1', 1', 1 , 2' 5 + 3 2 Bob Valentine 0 , 1', 2', 1 , 0 4 + 2 3 Peter Collins 3 , 2', 2 , 1 8 + 1 3 John Boulger © 1 , 3 , 0 , 0 , R 4 4 Dave Jessup 2', 0 , 2', 3 7 + 2 4 Phil Herne 0 , 0 , - , - 0 5 John Louis 3 , 3 , 3 , 3 12 5 Billy Sanders 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 2 6 6 Malcolm Simmons 3 , 2', 3 8 + 1 6 Garry Middleton R , 0 , - 0 7 Terry Betts 2', 0 , 0 2 + 1 7 Bob Humphreys 1 , 0 , - 1 Against possibly the strongest England team of all time, Australia had little chance of victory but often outgated the home country. But Crump received little support from both ex-Leicester rider Boulger and Sanders Saw this on the excellent info site www.internationalspeedway.co.uk with quite a big statement thrown in over this being the strongest England team of all-time at an international match at Leicester in 1975. But you know what, it probably was. All world class and all at - or very near - their peak. Useful reserve pairing too.

Yes....and the point is don't survey the existing crowds...that will tell us nothing. Or worse still pander to a shrinking group with less years in front of them to watch speedway. It's the people NOT attending speedway who are of more interest. How do we get more of them through the gate? I think we are at the stage where promotions like the Isle of Wight should be welcomed and given free rein to experiment with new formats...and properly pilot them. Oh, and please don't be offended on your age. I think we can all recognise that any sport who's fan demographic is 60+ has a problem.

Yes, he has. Guys like Len Silver also deserve a lot of credit for keeping tracks going for a long time. But, this is about the future, not about the past. It's not coincidence that the 60-80 year old men putting on the show are appealing to 60-80 year old men who attend. That's not long-term sustainable. It's need fresh eyes, fresh thinking and fresh blood.

It needs a complete revolution, not fiddling while Rome burns. The reality is the product and package isn't good enough...and people outside of the speedway bubble couldn't give a toss over doubling up or whatever the latest rule tweak is. My vision is for the British speedway to: move to a family-friendly weekend model be part of a multi-motorsport experience including sidecars, quads, flat track etc That's the core offering from any other motor sport experience in the UK road or off road. People of all ages get a full day out and people get to see disciplines they enjoy and others that they may want to grab a burger/pint during. I know I am biased, but I still believe (possibly foolishly) that with its stadium setting, speedway can offer a much more engaging spectacle that other motorsports. So, I still have hope. Faith is another matter. British speedway doesn't have....and never really has had....the leadership or appetite to make wholesale changes to reflect public opinion. Nor, sadly are the remaining hardcore fans blameless, they too will (largely) stubbornly oppose change even whilst their fellow hardcore supporters are slowly dwindling away before their very eyes. It requires a Barry Hearn/Dana White figure...but the potential is ultimately limited, so people of that ilk are never going to come forward. And so, we will trundle on.

The only plan is to make it up as they go along...which every year means cobbling together what's left. And er, that's it.

It is very amateurish...let's stop any pretence it is a professional sport in Britain and cut the cloth accordingly.

Thanks very much

Ha! I'd made that assumption too. Another place I have spent a lot of time at, oblivious to the significance. Looks like I played 5 as side for years where the old speedway was. Pretty unusual I would have thought to have two oval circuits side by side, particularly as athletics and speedway both took place on a cinder surface back in the day.

What exactly was Ringwood? I went there once for a long(ish) track event in the early 90s...with Wiggy, Hagon, Schofield and the like. Seemed like a one off and not really sure what the place was otherwise used for?

Is it just me....or can you still see the vague outline of the track on the satellite image?

Nice work all. I'm a keen runner and have ran past New Cross many times, utterly oblivious to where it was. Same goes for a trail/cross country race in Epping Forest (High Beech) too. Thanks all.

Tim is my postman He was born in Teignmouth. I can't give you an exact age, but more Tim Grey now! Always enjoy a chat putting the speedway and grass track worlds to right...oh and Brexit (sorry...wrong thread!)

Not really a realistic stance is it? Of course it's not easy to draw the line. Riding for a speedway team is a paid job, not some sort of voluntary service. I'd say guys like PC, Mort, Lyons, Crump are all in the bracket of those who who gave great service, always gave 100%, represented the Aces with distinction and each made a significant contribution to Belle Vue's rich history....of course they would merit free passes. There are others too. Call them lifetime members. But can anyone really argue that say Barry Ayres or Bernie Collier (sorry to pick these two...they are just two who come to mind) and everyone in between should deserve free entry for evermore? I worked for six years stacking shelves at Tesco's to fund my student years....should I get free shopping now?

Hazy memories admittedly, but does anyone remember a character who called himself the Black Knight touring NL tracks in the late 80s to take on local juniors in match races? I have the name Jon White in mind. He'd be all decked out in black and would give out chocolate to fans. Also, at the other end of the scale, Hans Nielsen toured NL tracks taking on the local No1 in match races around a similar time... perhaps even early 90s? Interested to see any results from these and any other novelty match races.

Sadly I have heard from more than one source that he is not the same man since a brain haemorrhage some years ago. And if that's the case, then I think people in the position to do so, should be careful what they put into print from the PC of today, should it tarnish the reputation of someone who has made an immeasurable contribution to the sport and given so much joy to so many people in speedway.