Nigel

Nice try Dave ...but the red herrings aren't biting Edit:- I must add that the only time I humiliate myself is in private and Miss Whiplash makes me pay for the privelage.

Jack, with friends like BFD you dont need enemies

Jack, My unreserved apologies for belittling your religious beliefs and my apologies to all viewing this thread who subscribe to the same faith and felt offended. All was meant in Jest. In hindsight a mistake., but it was you Jack who made the references to religion in your post, perhaps not the wisest thing to do. Nigel

He wasn't in Sainsburys today.

so in your own words it is only a 'theory'...........Like the Hoskins urban myth

I have to disagree with the venerable scribe Norbold in his assertion that JH took risks because if he did it was not with his own money. JH did not have the wherewithal to fund speedway promotions, my research suggests he relied on others to provide the money. It appears he always had a partner(s), business men etc. and most likley managed tracks for the real promoters, those whose money was at stake. Without those people he could not have achieved anything. The 'I did it all' self publicity machine pushed into the shadows all those who deserve credit for their part in speedway. I wonder how their sons feel with their fathers being denied a place in history,

As Mr Elder was still in America at the time it would have been difficult to upset John S Hoskins or the sports founder should there ever have been one.

Tut tut slap my wrists not paying attention again..... my profuse apologies.. I blame old age what about Len Upfold? I cant be Ar*** to read it all from the begining again

Hi Kennylane, Tirade is a bit strong? I have quoted as it was written. you are right much of the grammer in the early mags was iffy. After much research I have yet to discover who the rider is, but I have not given up

I realise that to many people John S Hoskins is a hero, Someone they hold in high esteem and when our heros are brought down to earth we react and distrust those who sully their image. The realisation that our heros are not all they are cracked up to be can bring deflation and disappointment. The American speedway superstar Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder was my exulted hero. When I discoverd some unsavory truths about his private life I felt let down, deflated and disappointed. I have never looked at him in the same light again.

I also offer this for discussion. The following article was taken from “The Motor Cycle” April 1923. Written by an Englishman who was racing in the USA 1922 note the date 1922. A similar article was published in "Motorcycling" "Fascinating Dirt Track Racing" “Exciting but not really dangerous sport---An American idea that England might imitate” As an Englishman in America, keenly interested in motor cycling, especially racing, I notice several of your correspondents seem to have mistaken the ideas about racing conditions in the USA. Saucer tracks are a thing of the past; they went out of vogue about 1915. The present day racing is conducted entirely on dirt tracks of half to one mile or sometimes 2 miles to the lap. They are to all intents and purposes unbanked; that is they are, on average only two to three feet higher on the outside than on the inside as they are used extensively for horse trotting races as well as for motorcycles and cars. The surface of a good track is of Clay, which is rolled and dragged, and usually has a cushion of softish earth on top. The tracks are generally surrounded by wooden fences inside and out. During 1922 I do not recollect having heard of one single race meet conducted on anything other than dirt tracks and most of them were half mile tracks. There is also a certain very limited amount of record breaking carried out on banked Board tracks of one mile or more to the lap, in the Los Angeles and San Francisco districts. (Evidence suggests that board track racing continued up to 1928.. NB) I have raced several times at Brooklands and last summer (1922) I raced in seven Half mile dirt track meets over here. The dirt track as an engine testing ground cannot compare with Brooklands. By taking big risks a man often beats a faster machine ridden by a more cautious rider. No one would ever win at Brooklands by riding the “turns” two feet from the inside. On a dirt track the going is often best right next to the inside fence and the more daring riders will slither and slide around just close to the fence as they can keep, also no fast machine can be ridden wide open around a half mile track; the machine would turn completely round and go down, though some of the best riders will slide all the way around the turn with the back wheel twelve inches further out than it should be. This sounds impossible but never the less it happens. To all intents and purposes one steers by sliding the back wheel and the peculiar nature of the track surface makes this very much easier than it appears. From a sporting point of view the half mile unbanked dirt track is better than any other form of racing except the T.T.. So long as there is a bank of soft earth between the riders and the fences to prevent some of them taking undue risks cornering, it is the most fascinating sport I have ever gone in for and provided one wears leather clothes one can come off any number of time without serious consequences to rider or machine. The writer would like to see half a dozen dirt tracks scattered over England. They are cheap to construct, the gate money would more than pay for them, and they would give a large number of private owners a chance of motor cycle racing in one of its most fascinating forms. Englands first Speedway rider?

The following has been passed on to me, it is not research of mine, but I offer it for the appraisal of the discerning folk following this saga. While browsing through some back numbers of the Speedway Star I found this headline "The men who started speedway," A full page, without a creditation, Paul Parish was the editor, so we will hold him accountable, The appeared article on 11/2/1966. The article in brief , is saying that JHS is researching a new book assumably Speedway Walkabout, and he had to do a lot of research, he contacted the New South Wales Morning Herald in a plea for information [ so you see he was not relying on his memory!] JHS is reported to have recieved a reply from Bill Crampton who rode in the first meeting. Bills letter implies that Maitland resident Len Upfold, a member of the Hamilton motor cycle club, had a vision of motorcycles racing under lights. Len approached JHS, with a view to motorcycles racing at the Maitland showground. JHS then invited the motor cycle club to the showground on a sunday morning, date not given to try out the track Riders were Bill Crampton, Les Upfold, George Ross, Andy Eyre, Bill Cogan and Claude Rankin. reference is made to JHS starting on a Triumph. Riders were timed against the clock. It was agreed that the following saturday these riders would race under lights at the showground with members of Maitland motor cycle club Bill Crampton concludes his letter by saying the spectators were in favour of the motor cycles so negotiations were entered into with the Hamilton motorcycle club for them to appear on December 15 1923. Bill states that he was 65 and his memory was as good as it was in 1923. It would appear that the archives of the Maitland or the Hamilton motorcycle clubS could hold the clues to the true origins of speedway Now we have another pre JHS visionary one Len Upfold!! over to you guys and gals

wow what a statement...... dave I see your sense of humour is still intact

JH may have opened Odsal ...but not with his own money

BFD Will you please tell me what JH did and how you are going to prove it ? do you have his CV ?

You miserable old git

Hi a good evening to one and all David you still have this fixation about Red herrings arnt you supposed to see pink elephants As it seems to be the fashion to quote mags books etc, may I quote the following? I have just dug out my copy of Tom Stenners book "Thrilling the Million" (The American version) so not sure of the original publication date. but this one is 1947. Tom was Speedway editor of the Daily Mail. And I quote verbatim:- "How it all Started" There is a widespread Impression that Speedway originated in Australia, and if this is not altogether a fallacy it is certainly an exaggeration of the truth. Long before the sport was introduced to the Commonwealth there was motorcycle racing on Dirt and Board tracks in the United states.............. (Further on, Tom writes) It was Australia, however, who gave us speedway racing as we know it today. No one Individual was responsible, It was more or less a combination of circumstances that indicated the possibilities of a new sport. -:end quote) Tom Stenner refers to JH as an outstanding 'personality' in the sport not promoter. I note in Cyril Mays' Book Ride it' The complete book of speedway, he gives no credence to JH and talks of Maldwyn Jones and the American Dirt Tracks. I quote:- The general belief that speedway racing originated in Australia is certainly a fallacy. -:end quote For futher reading I suggest "The Speedway Star" 13th March 2010 page 26. Enjoy

And you think this is proof as a certain tennis player said "You cant be serious" I hope you never get on a jury John Proud a real expert on speedway history. I suppose he spent years researching, that is when he wasnt painting speedway pics. (No offence to Mr Proud) Jack you should be a script writer for a comedy prog. Do you spend your life trying to wind every one up. Do you read the "SUN"

Dear David as you so kindly pointed out my short comings in the use of english can I return the compliment? for it seems you cannot distinguish the difference between a red herring and a metaphor, please dont take up fishing, your incorrect accusations of the same will seriously deplete stocks. (Ps dont forget to check my spelling) For the delectation of all R. M. Sammy Samuels one time editor of 'Motor cycling' and 'Speedway News' was also manager of an Indian motorcycle agency in London, this gave him the opportunity to go to the USA in 1911 where he witnessed 'Dirt Track Racing'. Years later he commented that Johnnie Hoskins had only reinvented an old idea. (From Motor cyling) Sammy was a good friend of Hoskins. When the sport came to England 5yrs after Maitland it was called 'Dirt Track racing' as it was in OZ The advert for the first High Beech Meeting (Published in many later books) clearly states "Dirt Track Racing as seen in the USA and Australia". The "Banner at West Maitland" was "Electric light sports carnival" the word Speedway never used. Flat earthers, please consider these are (a)Facts (b)Opinion ( c) hearsay (e)something from a riders fading memory (d)I dont understand cos I am dim as a 20 watt bulb. Plaques. There is a castle not far from me and halfway up the wall is a plaque and it reads , "The Duke of Denbigh was born here, well I do not believe for 1 minute the Duke of Denbigh was born half way up a wall Plaque indeed I am suprised that people believe that a race around an (800yd?) grass covered trotting track was not only a speedway meeting but the first. God knows what the New Zealanders must think as they had been doing the same years before Maitland 1923, their champion Percy Coleman went to the USA in 1919 to Race on the "DIRT TRACKS". I supposed the Darwin doubters will say Hoskins invented grass track racing in NZ I only hope I dont come up before a jury containing some of the wind up merchants on here, (Innocent I am) they would have me banged to rights. As their ability to discern facts is apparently limited. Grammer and spelling not checked

It has to be Nigel, anyone called Nigel has to be brilliant I first saw Nigel at Perry Barr in 1957 and he has been a favorite of mine ever since. An exciting rider to watch, a real racer who never gave up, more spectacular than his brother, as Coventry promoter Chas Ochiltree said ...pure box office.

(Enter left) Mother goose...... followed by Big fat Dave.....

You are a grumpy old man !!!! Everone else seems to be able to follow my miss spelt ungramatical rant, whats your problem? yes I wish there was a spell checker on this forum Ungramatical..spelling, Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black ... "Lifes not like That" what a pearl of wisdom Sorry but it aint opinion and I have not offered one and Ive not asked you to accept anything If You choose not to believe thats your choice but it dont alter the truth.. to be honest I could not care less what you believe as I said I aint going to bother to convert those with closed minds, the flat earthers. And how the hell would you know what evidence I have. On the basis of your arguments you do not believe anything about anything. Not much point in you reading a history book as you apparently think they are just opinion. What I have not heard from the Hoskins supporters is any reasoned or logical debate just silly accusations of Hoskins Phobia. You have made it quite obvious that you are a Hoskins believer Must go Ive got better things to do than argue the toss, G-day

Quote:- I'm not trying to defend anything, Norbold. I posted a statement by Ian Hoskins - you seem to have adopted a 'Shoot the Messenger' approach - I think your retirement may have contributed to your rapid decline in debating skills. As for me, while I don't claim to be the fount of all knowledge like yourself, or pretend to have done lots of research while facetiously asking other people to prove one's own points, at least I've been to Maitland and seen the evidence with my own eyes. :-unquote Hmmmm... the insults aint even humorous, could be seen as a tad spiteful? Norbold has never claimed to be the fount of all knowlege or given that impression in my view. Facetious 1. characterized by levity of attitude and love of joking, a facetious person 2. jocular or amusing, esp at inappropriate times facetious remarks Dont loose your sense of Humour Dave !!

Yes David (Bruce) it is a Nigel keep of it Dave Are you into fishing dave. so many red herrings .... plus insults If I were you Id stick to tea Youve been to Maitland and seen the evidence... have you got a "Tardis" as well, ... what evidence.. a plaque on a wall