TheCookster

Davies & Lunna have been switched due to an error in the averages. Davies now riding at #3 with Lunna at #7.

Perhaps that is the case then, TMW - I really don't know. Though, they could have simply listed Caroline Tattum as co-promoter, if it were something done simply to satisfy BSPA regulations.

I don't know for a fact whether Malcolm has bought into the promotion or not. However, my assumption was that there would be some form of formal agreement, otherwise why would he be listed as 'co-promoter' rather than just 'manager'? Malcolm wouldn't necessarily have had to buy into Dave and Caroline's business to do that (which would explain why it wouldn't show up in that company's records at Companies House). It could be done along the lines of a form of joint venture, such as you often see in the television and film industries, where two or more production companies co-operate to fund and promote a programme or film. I suspect that Stoke will probably stay in the NL as long as the Tattums are involved, as you say Vog, but I am too positive by nature to simply accept that nothing will ever change ... there just needs to be the right catalyst for change!

Most things are for sale if the price is right. There was certainly some talk about five years ago that Dave Tattum was open to approaches and there was a figure being bandied around that he would supposedly be prepared to accept. However, that was based around a complete buy-out of the promotion rights rather than just a majority share. I am not sure whether that would hold the same appeal to him. Since that time Malcolm Vasey has also bought into the club as co-promoter, so that would need to be factored into the equation too.

Perhaps it needs a consortium of supporters to buy out the current promotion and take the club forward themselves.

I certainly find the PL to be easily the most entertaining of the three British speedway leagues.

Welcome to thread Oldsparky - and thanks for getting straight to the crux of the matter with your pertinent comments! You are, of course, spot on and crowd numbers at Loomer Road had been dwindling in the couple of PL seasons prior to the move into the National League (though that move did prompt a significantly larger immediate exodus). Though I would question whether this was really the reason that the team taken down into the NL ... I know it is the reason that Dave Tattum gave for taking the team into the NL (as part of the "5-year plan"), but I never believed it personally. My own view is that he took the easy option to address the falling profitability of his business. His decision to move into NL meant that he could significantly cut his costs with regard to riders' pay and by not significantly reducing the cost to attend he could then benefit financially. The better - and in my opinion - correct option would have been to address the many promotional shortcomings (a number of which you mentioned in your post) and improve the product on offer to the paying public, but that would obviously have taken more effort. I can't take issue with any of the criticisms of the promotion that you list in your post, because you are quite simply right! And I know only too well that you could have added many more examples to the list! I also know that even if Dave Tattum were to take the team back into the PL next season (though I don't expect he will) then there will be a good number of exiles who would still not return. Personally, I would, because I promised that on the Stoke forum at the time and I would be true to my word. However, if Stoke are to ever return to the Premier League and if increased numbers of spectators are to be attracted through the gates, then I suspect it will take a change of promoter to achieve it.

Steeplejack, you seem to be coming from a completely different starting point to me. Your contention seems to be that league speedway is fundamentally broken and that it needs a complete overhaul and reinvention as something in a dramatically different format. By contrast, my assertion is that British league speedway may well be broken and that certain clubs (such as Stoke) are more broken than others. (This is the reason why I believe that your point warrants a separate thread rather than being part of this one.) However, I will quickly address your point and why I believe that your contention about league speedway being being fundamentally broken is wrong: If league speedway in its current basic format were fundamentally broken, then it wouldn't work anywhere ... but that isn't the case. League speedway in Sweden follows the same basic format - and is successful. League speedway in Poland follows the same basic format - and is successful. Therefore, the issues in British league speedway must lie elsewhere, hence my belief that there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport in this country rather than league speedway's basic format.

A glutton for punishment! :-)

Sadly, Greg, I suspect you are right - and I have suspected as much since the day the promotion announced their plan to take the team into the NL only. I had been an ardent supporter of Stoke Speedway - I rarely missed a home fixture and was one of the most (if not the most) travelled supporters of them when they were riding elsewhere - so over the years I had already experienced a number of disappointments relating to the way Stoke Speedway operated and treated its paying public. I had certainly experienced and learned enough to take the talk of a "5-year plan" and a return to the PL with a pinch of salt. That said, I hope that my suspicions are wrong and that Stoke line up in the PL in 2016 ... but I won't be holding my breath - it isn't likely to be good for my health!

I don't really see what relevance this has to "Stoke's 5-Year Plan" and should probably be part of a separate thread in its own right. That aside the "logic" behind your argument is seriously flawed. There are already plenty of speedway riders who ride around a track in similar times, such as your approx. 60 seconds for instance, when they have no competition. Firstly, riding around a track that is empty and riding around around a track with other riders is not the same proposition. Secondly, if one rider can ride a race in 60 seconds and another in 60.2 seconds, then that would suggest they are of a very similar standard - but that would still equate to about a 5 metre difference in distance at the end of the race, which can seem huge. It is nonsense to try to compare speedway as a team sport to things like association football or rugby football as team sports. In those type of sports all of the members of the team are on the pitch at the same time, in speedway they are not. In that respect speedway is more akin to many equestrian team sports, where individual scores are added together to give an overall team score, or in certain aspects sports such as tennis pairs, where two players are on the field of play at any given time against two opposition players. Certainly in the earlier days of speedway this latter comparison is how it was envisaged. Teams were made up of "heat leaders", "second strings" and "reserves" and the heat structure was designed in such as way as to allow and encourage the senior riders to team ride with the more junior riders. Granted, team riding is something which has very much diminished over the years, but then your preferred sport of rugby has also changed significantly over the years too. (Being both a qualified rugby coach and a qualified referee, it is a sport I am intimately familiar with!). Speedway is not perfect, no sport is. I personally find football as dull as dishwater most of the time these days as the end result is generally determined by who has most money. Of course speedway has dull races, which are from the gate and processional, but at least there is another race a few minutes later ... unlike another motorsport, F1 racing, which tends to be from the start line and processional for the next 2 hours! Personally, I believe there are more issues with the overall organisational structure and the promotion of the sport rather than its basic format. I don't expect everyone to like it, just as I may fail to see the attraction of somebody else's favourite pastime. And it does puzzle me slightly why someone who seems to find the sport so objectionable would spend their time on a forum dedicated to speedway! ... For example, as someone who has never really understood the appeal of polo as a sport, you wouldn't find me frequenting a polo forum and trying to persuade them that they have got it all wrong! ;-)

I am full of respect for Leigh's ability, character and professionalism. In the final season (2010) prior to Stoke's demise into the NL, Leigh guested for the team on a number of occasions and his whole attitude and approach was exemplary. He really is a boon to any side that he rides for and I am glad to see him doing so well at Somerset this season.

As I understand it, a draw at Plymouth would put Ipswich through. It would also mean that Rye miss out completely, as Glasgow would already count as a superior runner-up due to a higher match points average.

Slight temporary detour off topic, but having visited Kings Lynn many times over the years, I would readily agree that it is a very good race track. There is an element of "lies, damn lies and statistics" here. Whilst it can be fun and sometimes / often* (delete as appropriate) to analyse statistics, they are not the be all and end all. Having spent my working life in sales analysis and marketing I know was well as anyone that you can make the same set of statistics say a number of different things - which sometimes can also appear to be in direct contradiction of each other! TMW is absolutely spot on in post #37 that watching attempted passes can be every bit as enjoyable as watching a successful pass. However, as Stoke Potter also says, this would be virtual impossible to capture within a statistical breakdown and it is a qualitative rather than a quantitative observation. That said, I would also maintain (again without any solid proof to substantiate it, other than my own observations) that there are fewer genuine chases and attempted passes in the NL than there are in other leagues.

Agreed! And I suspect that the NL would have the lowest amount, though I have no firm evidence to support that, just my gut feeling based on the meetings I have seen over the years.

Valid point. If it could be monitored (and I'm not sure any of the statisticians ever have), then number of passes could potentially give you an even better idea of how competitive and entertaining one league is compared with another.

Precisely. Which is why you need a track that offers different racing lines and riders with the confidence and track craft to exploit those different lines.

He averages 6.40 from 2 meetings there.

If you are genuinely not seeing ANY track craft, then I think you should seriously consider changing the venue and / or level that you are watching speedway at. ;-)

There is no real issue with the speed the guys in the NL can ride at when they have a clear track, it has more to do with a lack of overall track craft. This was, after all, the reason why the NL was created, so that riders would have the opportunity to develop their skills in a competitive environment before moving on to compete at a higher standard.

He may well have since stated that there was no such 5-year plan ... but I and several hundred other people know very well what was stated at the time. I also think you are absolutely right that it is highly unlikely to happen under the current promotion. I was playing devil's advocate when I started this thread, in full knowledge of how this promotion has operated over the years and continually treated its paying customers as mugs. Hence my own decision to cease putting any more their way four years ago. I said back then on the Stoke forum that I would return to Stoke when the promotion took the club back into the PL at the end of the 5-year plan. If that happens then I will be true to my word, but I suspect I won't have to be, because the promotion won't have been true to theirs.

I take your point SCB, but the total averages available for team building in the EL over recent seasons has tended to lead to most teams having one outstanding rider at the top of the averages and then a mediocre mix below him. I also accept that this is likely to be not quite so extreme this season with the increase in the EL team average.

Interesting ... Always fun to look at the stats :-) If you look at the best v the worst i.e. the top ranked heat leader v the lowest ranked reserve, do the stats still say the same? And how does that look for th NL?

I agree up to a point, but don't necessarily subscribe to the view that the PL has the best racing, because it has the best tracks. Of the current EL tracks I would only really take issue with Lakeside (due to its shape) and Belle Vue (due to often having a lack of grip) as being disappointing tracks. Stoke itself can provide excellent racing, with a variety of lines, which I believe is wasted at NL level where many riders do not yet have the skills to exploit them.

I think that is a little bit of a "Catch 22" scenario. Clearly every additional meeting (including guest bookings) will take its additional toll on a rider's equipment, but by the same token, the guest booking will also provide additional income that should help the rider to become less dependent on financial support from other sources.