Grand Central

But then again, that one is in Chinese.

From memory I believe it is engraved 'BRITISH CHAMPIONSIHP CHALLENGE TROPHY' And as it has been like that since the sixties ... I'd think we can leave it, don't you?

Your remarks say that Dave Jessup would have been THIRD in the 1981 rankings not NINTH if he had just not had those two engine failures at Wembley. Seems that you have got your weightings quite a bit 'off' in that case alone. Surely the whole idea of a 'rankings system is to assist in 'evening out' such one-night events and give a better judgement over the whole season. DJ may have dropped 6 places on the night with those failures, but to also do so in a ranking system for the entire season as well seems to expose a fundamental error in the weightings systems being used.

My own programme , filled in on the night, specifically records all three as tapes exclusions.

"Facebook for Dummies" possibly.

It is always nice to have the same issue settled on two separate threads a few weeks apart. Just for fun. Anyone fancy asking the same question for a third time just so we can go through it all the again? .

May I congratulate everyone for helping to get gustix to to the same place as we all reached a few weeks ago. Repetition was all that was needed, apparently.

Your reporting prowess of the distant past is something I find difficult to comment on. But to find you yourself, casting doubt on your own report from Wembley in1957 seems a pretty damning judgement of it's quality. But what I do know is that in the course of this discussion on this, and other similar threads, you have behaved disgracefully and disrespectfully towards people who have done the actual research.

As I said on a thread that was deleted by gustix this morning. He is now showing huge disrespect to serious historians who have undertaken extensive work to try to give us the most accurate information on our sport's history. This sort of nonsense he is repeating is nothing short of disgraceful.. .

I think I have entered some sort of parallel universe. This discussion seems to have become quite perverse. Are we now supposed to dismiss contemporaneous reports from Speedway meetings of the past? On the basis that the named reporter may have been too pissed to be relied upon.? is some sort of forum breathylser called for?

I think the video clearly shows that just ONE Norwegian rider was on parade out of 18 and that was Hansen. The other thread seemed to have sorted all this out in a very logical and systematic way. I don't really understand why we have started discussing it again as if the other thread had not existed.

And can I take this opportunity TODAY. To wish all forum members a very Merry Christmas. And give myself the freedom to enjoy the festivities without this particular debate taking hold over the next few days We could all probably do without it. Again. .

Very good contributions here.I agree entirely The sport needs to appeal to the young people with cash to splash on the night out that THEY want in 2016. Not the night out that some sixty-odd year old duffers THINK they want. And we need to rid the sport of the backward thinking that stifles and prevents some people with a little vision being able to move us on. Too often the folk 'on the inside' are only prepared to give anyone the experience that THEY have decided upon. Whether the public likes it or not. Tough! That is ALL they are going to get.. And they should be damned grateful for it! We don't just need people In their twenties through the gate. They are also needed within the sport to be coming up with the thinking and actions that they know will speak to their own age group. Thankfully Phils lunch with Kelv has stimulated this debate. But the best answers are going to come from people their kids age, or even younger.

Grachan, please don't apologise for what your clearly very astute 12 year old tells you. Most of my likes and dislikes were identical in my younger years. Many have not changed right through to my fifties. I think he gives a much better insight than Phil and Kelv at lunch, to be honest. No disrespect to your musings Phil, but some of them seem to be quite old fashioned and wide of the mark on some fronts. They sound just a little like people 'lost on the inside' finding it rather difficult to see the sport in the round and objectively from the outside. Time and again various Speedway Promoters have tried the going around Schools route. It has only had very limited impact. Despite volunteers putting in a huge amount of effort in the honest belief that they were 'at least doing something to help' it has rarely come up trumps. Speedway is a funny old sport ... It tends to be populated by a large number of 'non motorcycle folk'. Most of whom just are not that interested in the intricacies and finer details. And whilst the very small sample of folk who took up his track walk gave such positive feedback, I just feel Kelvin is so steeped in Castrol R that he may miss that this is not really where the public are. I feel that the digital world is one that should be explored ... But this is the world of the youngsters and old fogies like us are just not in a position to have the first clue of what that really requires. New young blood - not promoters. journos, ex riders or silly old codgers like me - need to be brought in for that. And that will cost real money to invest for the future. The use of amateur web designers and the like who continue to portray the sport as a backward place online needs a real revamp. Speedway's entire online prescnce is quite woeful for 2015. Hardly any different than ten years ago, or even more. And we certainly do not want to continue with the restrictive practices employed by the dinosaurs at Go Speed that will stifle activity in this area with their Kremlin like control over media output. That has to change in a big way if technology is to be used properly. Worrying about the programmes sales is frankly quite sad, in this context, and displays just how out of touch oldies can be with the modern world. Unfortunately this all involves 'speculating to accumulate' and I do understand that there really is so very little money in the kitty to make that investment.

The language problem that I find concerning is that in circumstances like this. Where accuracy is paramount. On the locked thread, the forum moderator can confuse the word 'LIBEL' with 'LIABLE'. Whilst admonishing people for their thoughtless use of inappropriate words. .

I find this all terribly confusing. Are we meant to now self censor ourselves so that it would be impossible to mention that a gay man, is gay. Even if he is? Have equal rights for the LGBT community meant nothing? Is it possible to call Starman a moron or cretin? When clearly he should take it as a compliment for overestimating his IQ. Or would this be banned for fear of upsetting morons and cretins with the clearly insulting comparison to Starman?

What a thoroughly depressing decision. The lunatics have taken over the asylum. I do hope that is not taken as being offensive by any fools, idiots, imbelciles, morons, maniacs, madmen, pscycopaths or psycotics. One can never be sure which category some of the folk on here fall into.

I think matters such as the LIBOR scandal illustrate exactly why confidentiality is a little overrated at times.

The comparison you choose is so revealing. Defending Speedway Promoters, and the probity of their actions. By alluding to the practices of City Bankers as justification. With friends like you .... Jon Cook and his mates don't really need any enemies.

I think you are right about Briggs ... But one of the funny things about the debate on who could have won more titles under a GP system is that you can convince yourself that they ALL could have done ... Except, of course, they couldn't ! Briggs, Olsen, Mauger, Collins, Nielsen ... arguments could be made for all that they may have won more titles in a GP system. Others who never won it like Jessup, Carter, P Crump and others could have won under a GP where they failed in the one-off. But it can't be true for them all. Every 'extra' win would have to come at the expense of someone who didn't win. Makes it a fairly impossible task to really work out. But the unpredictability of the old World Final certainly allows so much more debate donkeys years later that the GP system just can't match. The winters would be quite boring for this sort of discussion if we only had the GPS to rely on for our reminiscing.

And I join you in this very pleasant but unexpected place of agreeing entirely with gustix. I believe the result of the European Final Qualifier on July 7 at Vaxjo makes its abundantly clear how correct this seems http://edinburghspeedway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/1957-european-final.html

Yes that clip is poor and not complete. This version of the movietone footage shows the riders going on parade at the start http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/58b9d0459d4646598a832bcafc0b4c96 I am not that adept at spotting the riders themselves; but a 'body colour count' would tend to show just one Norwegian (Aage Hansen) and I think SEVEN Union Jacks. One of which must be Crutcher ... ?

I just want to put my two-penneth into the mix here. I happen to think thank Hans Nielsen was, and is, terribly overated. I know Rob will leap to his defence .... but I just never felt he was that special. I always felt he just happened to be the best guy around when the rest were pretty p!ss poor. He was the best of probably the worst bunch ever. But even then he underachieved massively. He wasn't World Champion in so many years when he just should have been if he were anything special. Not World Champ in 90. Not World Champ in 91. Not World Champ in 92. Not World Champ in 93. Not World Champ in 94. He just should have been because, at the time, the rest were pretty mediocre.

As someone born and raised within an HX postcode it is not possible to say that I am in anyway non partisan in my feelings on any Carter-Penhall discussion. But one thing I decided many moons ago was to temper my Heat 14 angst and to stop my constant adolescent questioning of Mr Kittelsen's parentage. My feelings are a lot different today than when listening to the Live radio coverage on Pennine Radio, under the covers in the the middle of the night. Crying myself to sleep as Tony Delahunty told us the worst. That race, and particularly that fateful lap, was unarmed combat. Man-on-Man . Elbows, legs, feet were all in play. On both sides. BP was the 'last man standing'. So he won.

I know threads often go off at various tangents on the BSF. But must say how genuinely surprised I am that a thread about the supposedly charismatic Penhall has has so little to say about the guy himself. Apart from the 'White City incident' there is little light or shade. We would prefer to chat about other riders of his era, and sidelining old Brucey. Even LA82 is really a lot more about KC than BP. I suppose that once you have said. He was Good. And. He was nice. That's about it?