Grand Central

daveallen81 s correct in every respect. It may sound fatalistic, but true. For those that have fond memories of the past. We will retain them, and wallow in them. For those who enjoy the sport today, then cherish it, attend it, and enjoy it for as long as it lasts. It will go on for years, but in a declining way. Best accept that and get the most out of it along the way. But to be honest, for those with big ideas about change. Who are convinced they know how to improve things. Don't waste your time, money and effort; unless you can afford it easily and would enjoy chasing a pipe dream. It will not get you anywhere. I've stopped kidding myself that there is a way to achieve success any more. But, hopefully, I'll still be here when they switch the lights off for the last time.

I still think it's a daft example.If KL had gone behind by six points, it would have been a totally different match. So it just does not ft as an argument. But is it fair? NO ! I have said that before, several times Tacs subs never were. And I don't care ! I loved them. . It was a damned good meeting.No reviling anyone from me. Another of my best ever meetings, the 1993 league decider won by a The Aces on the last heat. Thank god for the tac sub that got them back in the match when they went behind. Another wonderful night. I have never been kept awake at night by the unfairness, of it all. .

What are you talking about? Kings Lynn were never behind on Wednesday, let alone 6 or 10 points behind. Pretty stupid example.

Quite true.I must not be like you. I have watched Speedway all my life and throughout the whole of it tactical rules have been in operation. And I loved the old tac subs. From the first moment I could fill in a programme, and add up the scores, I was quite enthralled by the tactical possibilities of a team going 6 points down. To watch meetings with real tacticians as Team Managers like Peter Oakes with Exeter in the seventies, or John Berry and Peter Adams was a joy. So exciting, mentally stimulating and allowed so many discussions and arguments on the terraces. Some of the best meetings I have seen in the 'olden days' were MADE by the tac sub. One of the most famous I saw being Hackneys mammoth turnaround at The Shay in 1980 when they came from miles behind to win by one point at the end. Beating MY team using tacticals. Breathtaking, exhilarating. Heartbreaking. Wonderful it was.

Great bit of analysis there. I think the crucial point is that folk getting their knickers in a twist about 'fairness' can be allowed to do so. On their own. And the rest of the Speedway world can fret not a jot. In ninety odd per cent of matches the tac sub worked at giving tactical interest among the audience, probably tightening the match up for extra excitement, but at the end of the day the leading team still won. But there was just a glimmer of hope offered to the trailing side mid match and just a little extra tension for the leaders. Fine, just what we want. Brilliant. The data shows that on practice the TR performs rather similarly. So the only question should be which one to use. I would prefer the old tac sub, exactly as was. But I fully understand that the TR is far cheaper for the promoters, so they will choose that one. Only word of caution to them is that in the real world the subjective 'feel' by many punters. Right or wrong. Is that doubling points just looks stupid and 'circus like. It is worth them remembering that.

.Slight malfunction on the memory as it was Trevor Hedge who won a Heat 1 of the Cup final ahead of Jim Tebby and Ivan. Ronnie Moore actually brought wonderful Cyril home ahead of Ivan in his next ride. And then ivan went and fell in the last race of the match to round off a real nightmare. Interestingly, all this at Wimbledon came just two or three weeks after Paulson had beaten him at a Belle Vue. That Wimbledon Cup Final was a real humiliation for The Aces; with them going about 20 points down mid meeting and never stood a chance. Mind you Belle Vue had just won the League AND Ivan had not long won his record breaking third title in a row. So we could afford to give the other lesser teams a little success of their own. It only seemed polite. .

I have a marked programme from that meeting. Not marked by me but from the notes that have been added it seems obvious that the guy that did it was actually there. It has Geer 0-1-3-1-0 for 5 points and just the heat 14 zero for Yeates. The couple of extra notes written in are that Middleditch didn't actually break the tapes in Heat 14 he was excluded for crossing the start line with both wheels. And Colin Richardson was excluded from Heat 16 as he crossed the inside line with both wheels during the race.

No we didn't go that night. But remember the 'story' of it. Amazing that such a small event could still be remembered by people, who were not actually there, so many years later.

All good points Sidney.

You are, no doubt, spot on with those recollections. Assessing each has really to be done without much reference to head-to-head match ups as their peak form came at slightly different times. Mort wasn't anything really that special at The Shay. But at Hyde Road he had an incredible ability to make up huge acres of ground on opponents, probably more than PC, in my rememberings. I saw him do it a lot in league matches but the Test Match in 1982 had a couple classics like that against top opposition. Peter Collins was just excellent at a The Shay, and really infuriatingly, my memory tells me that he always seemed to reserve some of his best getting for there as well. But yes that was probably more in the time before KC became 'Number 1'.

Well, by the late seventies family allegiences had switched to Halifax. I know that many people regard KC as being a master of Hyde Road in his time. And wearing my Dukes hat I would not put up too much resistance to that thought. There is no doubt that at the 1981 BLRC he was in blistering form; but it feel he had rode even better in the league match there just before the World Final that year. We really did think he was peaking so that he could beat Bruicy. No one can discount Peter Collins of course. But It is just really difficult to decide though as Mighty Mort, always had my vote over PC. Personally, I thought PC was probably one of the best guys ever around The Shay, actually.

Ah, I do love historical revisionism ... with a selective memory to cherry pick those that help one's argument. So I shall enter into that just as freely.. No doubt that BB had his title hopes ended by Bernie Persson in that fateful incident that left him with such a ghastly injury. But Ivan Mauger could easily claim that the same Persson character destroyed his chances in the 67 Final when he dumped Mauger on the first bend of Heat 18. And wily old Fundin was better able to deal with the pandemonium that delayed the rerun while they got Persson off the track after his protests. Similarly BB himself was mightily lucky to be allowed to keep the 57 title when many thought he had caused Fundin to fall the in the run off. Every modern day international ref would have had Briggs excluded. Then there is the Belle Vue record. In the period 1969 to 1972 - when I was watching and Ivan was an Ace - the head to head between BB and Ivan are interesting. In league matches Ivan beat BB three times in the 69 match, they were one race each in the 1970 BL fixture (with Ivan also winning the second half final over BB) and in 1971 and 1972 neither appeared in a league match against each other at Hyde Road. In the BLRCs over the same period, obviously Barry won the 69 and 70 events and Ivan 1971. In 1969 Ivan beat Barry when they met (but Barry only needed a second to win) and that was reversed in 1971 when BB beat Ivan in their last race when Ivan had the title in the bag. In 1970 Ivan was excluded for tape breaking when they were due to meet. History can be twisted any way one likes if you have a mind to do it. Or could it just be that things were not quite how you thought Sid?

Ah yes, you are quite right. 1965 to 1970. Briggo won all those 6 BLRC; and just one world title. Ivan didn't win a BLRC at all. I think that Sprouts may be comforted by the three world titles that came his way during that time.

People seem preoccupied by 'natural talent' in the DW debate. I find it rather sterile. Frankly, I have never subscribed to the view that someone like Ivan Mauger had less 'natural' talent than others. It's as if 'natural talent' is some specific separate ability. Different than the huge ability Ivan had. I don't believe that. Peter Collins being generally crap from the gate but brilliant from the back, somehow equates to natural ability. Being brilliant from the gate, is not deemed natural ability. That's just daft. Everyone's natural ability has, ultimately, benefitted in realty from practice and applying themselves to it, rather single mindedly. PC's 'natural ability' is recognised and respected because he was given the Hyde Road platform to practice it on, hone it on and display it on, week after week. Just like Ivan did by applying himself to the very sensible aspect of Speedway racing known as 'gating'. And he put in massive number of hours at Hyde Road over the years, just as PC and Mighty Mort did too. Having watched Speedway at The Zoo from my first steps. I still think that Ivan is head and shoulders above anyone around that place. He really was stunning in his day, better even than PC, Mort, and Briggo. Its just that he didn't give people a 'head start' like the others.

We 'did Cardiff' by staying in Bristol for the weekend a couple of years ago. Had a fantastic time. Staying three nights in luxury resulted in massive savings, even with the small amounts on trains. Made a very different weekend. And was good to not spend the whole time in a perpetual 'fan zone'. .

Ahh ... Dick Bracher ! A name of infamy. He was in charge of the ACU Youth Division back in the day Awful man. I remember being astonished at his 'promotion' to the SCB.

.A slightly odd point as The Horse of the Year Show has never been held at Wembley Stadium. Nor, actually, ever on turf. Hallowed or otherwise. .

I absolutely love the whole weekend of the SGP in Cardiff. But I also happen to live within about 5 miles of Wembley, in London. And know so well, what the Capital has to offer It's just a bit stupid for people who should know better to damn London just to bolster Cardiff. It does not need it. And it just makes the poster look daft. .

Agree with pretty much all of that. Just one thing that I think gets forgotten about the 'decline' showed in the last few finals, and their venues. By the mid eighties the FIM was getting dominated by voices that were great advocates of making the move to GP system. There was no real force or will to make the later World Finals live up to their history. Sorber got Norden, Vaessen the Dutch two-dayer and Ole Olsen got to run a World Final at Vojens in 1988. The greatest advocate ever of the GP, being the promoter of the first ever World Final to be held at the end of a cul-de-sac on an industrial estate. Just seven years post Wembley. It wasn't just that the World Finals declined, on their own, they did so with the assistance of those who should have been their custodians. They were diminished just as much by the 'GP movers' in control picking crap-holes to host them. The argument to change to a new system is very easy to make if you have been able to denigrate the old system as well. It was a self fulfilling prophecy.

I am sure you are not alone.

It just read that someone had been pulling your leg, having you on. Claiming that the Danes could somehow manage to squeeze them all into the arena! I thought, surely he did not believe that!

.Because she appeared in Horsens in 2006 before ground had been broken on building this wee-stadium. She appeared on a Glastonbury-like stage on the training pitches With massive grass area easily accommodating 85,000 A bit like being at Hyde Park. .

Whilst your here, Philip ... Just read your 'twit-bits' from the GP last week. Please tell me that someone didn't really let you believe that Madonna played to 80.000 at the Casa Arena, did they?

At least it should make the implementation of the findings of the 'Warsaw Enquiry' so much easier (?) The interaction between BSI, Speedsport and future local SGP promoters will now have an extra dimension of 'diminished clarity', shall we say. Which will be nice. Perhaps, in Westminster, they are to delay the results of the Chilfott Enquiry until Euan Blair gets a place in government. Which I must add, he will do, of course, solely on merit. .

The bizarre thinking of this silly man is most comical " The rules have been clarified and now it’s clear what is, and isn’t, okay. " Yes, Greg. Let us all rejoice that you have made legal history in giving clarity on this matter. Running after a man and launching a full body assault IS against the rules. Here was me thinking that it was totally permissible. Idiot.