E I Addio

They might at Poole but if you think back to 2011 , just after the Winter of Discontent we had a 10 team EL but at that stage Kings Lynn and Eastbourne were saying they could only afford to run 14 or 15 meetings so we had that ridiculous league where you met some teams twice and others once, no Craven Shield , and that revamped KO cup without KL and Eastie that never appealed to anyone. One thought that has occurred to me as a result of t his discussion is tha the r ace format really needs changing. After you have seen, for example the two number 1's race each other 3 times in the A fixture and anothe r 3 times in the. B fixture do we really want to keep seeing them race each other again in any meeting. The more I. Think about it the mo re I wonder if the present EL format is partly to blame for falling crowds, with gate positions that favour one team in the first half of the meeting then favour the opposing team in the send half, in stead of being more evenly alternatived, protected heats with some reserves totally mis s matched, and. Heatleaders racing each other 3 times a night. Just a thought. L

.....and they are still in trouble with falling crowds. Still a few years behind our problems but the trend is still there. There is no quick fix solution. Orion is right about crowds. The problem is that unlike League matches there was no Sky money for KO cup matches, and the crowds weren't big enough to sustain it without. The second uproblem you have is that most of the top continental stars that ride here only want to do a limited number of meetings because of foreign commitments. You can have relatively short season with the likes of Magic, Zagar, AJ , etc or you can have a longer season without them but you can't start adding meetings and keep your top foreign stars. The third problem you have is that is hard enough now to put a team together without importing guests, if you start adding other competitions that situation will get worse.

Just had an idea but haven't properly thought it through yet, but how about keep,the TR but any rider nominated to go for double points can't be nominated for heat 15 ? That would stretch the TM's imagination a bit.

I know one thing, if Ward and Holder were constantly going out on TS rides for Poole, ie 6 rides each per meeting, you wouldn't be watching Speedwáy , nor would I nor would loads of others. That really would be the ruination of the sport. Much as I loath the present TR rule I can see that bringing the old TS back would be a big step backwards.

Yes and the heatleaders could pick their own gate positions so they could go off 1 or 2 all night if the,y wanted.

Teams can often get back into a match as a result of gate positions . For, example, let's say the best gates are 1 and 3 and the visitors are off p2and 4 in heat 1. That means that in six of the first nine heats the visitors would be off the least favourable gates and naturally fall behind. Then in four of the next five heats they are off the best gates, on top of that their numbers 1 and 5 , invariably their best two , go off the least favourable gates in their first two races but get the best gates at the business end of the meeting includ,in heat 13. That is why even without the TR some teams seem to establish a lead in the first half of the meeting then appear to let their opponents back in the match. Off course it is not a hard and fast principle and some meetings have more even gates than others but most TR's seem to come at around heats. 7-10 ie at about the point where they are starting to get a run of better gatke positions. Next time you see a team get back into a match look at the gate positions when it happens. That is something that adds to the unfairness of the TR.

I don't think you could say Lakeside were seriously in the frame. From the clubs point of view it was hardly worth spending the money when there was no chance of the play offs anyway and when you consider who would hanve to be dropped it would leave too big a hole in the middle order to be filled ba couple of untried foreign 3or 4 pointers. From Ward s point of view he will have the chance make more money with Swindon because they have more matches left to play, plus a chance of the play offs.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the TR rule is fair, both TR and TS are unfair, and it's debatable which is least unfair. The unfairness if TR rule is compounded by the 4-3-2-1.scoring system which means a team an get extra league points purely on the strength of the TR. if you take for example Lakeside v Swindon last week the TR didn't change the result of the match which Swindon would have won anyway but it did enable Swindon to get a 4 point win instead of 3 points and thus gain an extra point over BV and KL in the race for the play offs. That's just an lllustration and I know other clubs get the advantage sometimes but it doesn't help the overall fairness of the competition.. Personally I would keep the 3-2-1 home and 4-3-2-1 league point system and get rid of the TR, completely.

Anyone signing Ward would have to drop someone, or rather two people. Difficult to see who KL for example could have dropped without completely unbalancing the side. If Rory had been injured a little later , jus as Ward became available it might have been easier, but realistically you would have to get rid of a number one to fit Ward in, and Swindon just happened to have a number one on the way out at the right time. That's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes, but if KL get squeezed out it won't be for lack of effort. They were a lot of people's pre-season favourites and it just went wrong for them for all the wrong reasons IMO.

Read the context. KL started off as a very strong looking side that many were tipping for a high spot, but unravelled at a time when they couldn't do much about it. Nobody was tipping Swindon to do much at the start of the season but they got a get out of jail card when Ward, who had never been in their plans coincidently became available at a time when they needed a No 1 and when they happened to be able to fit him in.

So dear old Phil Space is short of news so writes a column telling us what we already know. Investigative journalism at its best. A few answers would be worth reading, or maybe an interview with one of the sports promoters or, administrators would be a good start.

Inconsistent decisions are once again at the root of it. According to today's SS Allen says he tried to to the same thing himself against Coventry earlier in the season but wasn't allowed, so bending the rules is ok if he can get away with it but not if someone else does it. The trouble is that Allens account in SS now tries l implicate Garry Havelock in saying it's OK and Graham Reeve as not objecting if the opposing team agree , so it's all it has really done is muddy the waters instead of clarifying a anything. Bottom line is the sport looks bad all round when the rules are applied inconsistently, or at least appears to be, but worse than that the Golden rule of any business is not to wash your dirty linen in public. That's what Norrie Allen has done and has come out of it looking worse.

I can't help feeling sorry for Kings Lynn. 2014 was their best chance of a Championship but it didn't happen for them . They still looked very solid this year but injuries to Rory and Lewis Kerr have been a blow they won't fully recover from. Rory in particular is irreplaceable as captain, with his off track leadership.. Unfortunately they frequently look like a one heat leader side, and I somehow can't see Kenny. Bear finding any real consitency now. Swindon have had the luck KL never had. They never looked like serious contenders at the start but by being in the right place at the right time when Darcy became available their chances are dramatically transformed. Could potentially be finalists and once there who knows what will happen, but whatever they achieve will be by good fortune in getting Darcy at the right time rather than anything else. If Belle Vue get there it will be on merit. All their 1-5 have had some erratic spells but they have stuck to their task and worked through it. There only problem is that that don't all seem to have a good night at the same time, but if they can all put it together at the right time, they could be outsiders for the final.

Ironically an on form Freddie would probably have done done enough to carry Wolves to a narrow win. Form is such a fickle thing and with the Freddie of 2 or three years ago Wolves season could have been far different. How long can the incredible PK keep this up? He has already probably forgotten more than most riders will ever know but experience continues to triumph over youth. Like most matches these days fast track is the problem. 15 points for Belle Vues reserves, 4 for Wolves. In almost every EL match these days that is the sort of discrepancy we see at reserve, and it it's where so many matches are won and lost. This EDR system has to be sorted out for next year. It is not what the fast track was originally intended to do and not what the public pay to see.

Exactly, and once again proving the point that you can always tell when people are bankrupt of sensible discussion because the red mist comes up and they start exagerrating, misrepresenting or misquoting other people's posts, and throwing insults ( including branding everyone who doesn't agree with them as "thick" or "sycophants") . That's pretty much par for the course for Drop a Cog I am afraid.

That' is the sort of non-point that typifies this sort of thread. If you sit a non-cricket fan in front of a televised cricket match they will almost certainly make the same criticisms, especially if the circumstances demand the batsmen play defensively and are not scoring many runs, even more so when the re is a delay for bad light. Non rugby fans quickly become bored with games where them flow is constantly delayed by line outs. On the other hand you could sit me in front the most exciting soccer match of the season and within minutes I become almost I'll with boredom . The point is certain types of people like certain types of sports. Nobody likes guests etc but most sensible fans realise there is no alternative much of the time. It is in the nature of the sport. The reasons for declining crowds are very complex and there is no quick fix answer. Greyhounds, stock cars, grass track motor cross and a number of other outdoor sports have similarly suffered to a greater or lesser degree, partly due to economic reasons , partly due to other factors. The only hard evidence we have. Is that when a team do well the crowds go up and when they do badly the crowds usually drop. I would suggest, based on other fans I have spoken to that the next biggest complaint is the very erratic fixture list, that leaves fans getting into them habit of doing other things on race . Of course the fact that TV broadcasts from all round the Speedwáy world has reached saturation point is another factor. There comes a point where couch potato mentality takes over if one is not careful

You can always tell when people have lost the argument , because they always start accusing anyone who doesn't agree with them of burying their heads in the sand instead of dealing with the merits of the argument.

the highlighted part is the nub of the problem with this type of discussion, and another problem is that these threads attract too many ex-fans whose only remedy is to turn the clock back.. I agree it is tedious when sides turn up packed with guests and that is a question those in charge need to address when it comes to next years fixture list, but there are a plethora of other problems and the trouble is that by solving one thing you make another worse.. To my mind the biggest single cause of aggravation this year has been erratic fixtures- on one occasion one home meeting in a five week period followed by three in eight days. When there is no fluency people find other things to do, and the casual fan who is happy to go once or twice a month is not going to go three times in eight days. That is all due to Sky and the continental fixture list.. One major change I would like to see and will put out for discussion/thoughts is to reduce the Speedway World Cup to once every four years like Soccer Cricket and Rugby. That would free up two weeks of the fixture list for other domestic meetings. Also reduce the GP's to one a month (say six per season) which would also be a big help to fixtures and rider availability.. Cant see either happening while the TV companies have such a tight grip on the situation, but it would make a big difference to domestic speedway.

Lakeside weren't allowed to,race illegally. The fact that the referee allowed it makes it legal unless and until there is a successful appeal on the point. As had been said already if Norrie Allen doesn't like it he has his remedy and should put his money where his mouth is.

I have to say one thing for Steve, his posts and his match reports over the years prove he regularly turns up tp support his club through thick and thin. Many of the Swindon fans that try to mock him are among the worst for throwing a strop and irregular attendance, if they go at all when their team go through a bad spell. I agree with Skidders post, Steve often make some good points, but sometimes good points are not what some posters want to hear.

In the South East it would cost around £500 minimum. £10 or so per head would be good value if the fans were paying but it would be prohohibitive for. A promoter. Years ago Len Silver laid on a free coach from Stratford to Hackney , just a few miles which I used when I was still at school but it was a bit of an old banger and I don't think there are many like that today. More recently , until a few years ago Lakeside used to lay on a bus form the track to an Underground station somewhere but that was eventually cancelled as it wasn't cost effective.

.tp That statement sums up the bankruptcy of you position. The best answer you can come up with is to imply I am happy with the set-up which is not what I said at all. I am not happy with the set up but I live in the real world and I realise we need real world solutions to real world problems with the sport not knee jerk reactions. That means any idea that is put forward has to explain the financial side of things. I pointed out to you the plain fact that riders have to earn a decent living, but you are unable to explain how that would work in your scheme and the best you cann do is to start mudslinging and claim I am happy with things as they are. The root of the problem is cheap airfares have for years made easier and cheaper to fly foreign riders in than to train riders of our own. There is a dire shortage of home grown riders in our leagues. The dramage there is already done and we have to start from w here we are now instead of moaning about it. The Hagon Shocks academy at Lakeside is starting to produce some talented young riders. That lis the sort of facility that has been missing for years but as they are only just reaching their early teens but it will be several years befor,e they leave school and/ or reach an acceptable league standard. In the meantime we have to manage with the few coming through the few other training facilities we have and there is no quick fix solution, only sticking plaster over the cracks. The other problem is that because of the amount if foreign riders we have and better pay on the continent, plus the long GP season our fixture list has to be built round the GP/SWC / Swedish/Polish season. That is disastrous for the home fixture list but there seems to be little we can do about it because many fans want to see top riders. Those are the two basic problems that need to be overcome before anything else can be properly sorted. I would be interested to see any intelligent suggestions with the financial side properly costed but I haven't seen any yet.

The Elite League runs 14 home league meetings per club per year. If that is all they are going to be allowed to ride they will not make enough money to earn a decent living, and when at times they race once every couple of weeks their sharpness will go and the standard will further deteriorate. In addition There was a big article on Richie Worrall in Speedwáy Star the other week in which he complained of not enough meetings in the PL to earn a living. It all very well taking the popular line about riders should do this or shouldn't do that but the bottom line is that for most of them if they need to double up in order to progress to the top league and to earn a decent living. This is where threads like this go off the rails because you are now saying anything that comes into your head to make a point, whether it's right or wrong. Peter Craven got to the World Final because he went though the qualifying rounds like everybody else in those days, Jack Young was riding in the Second Division when he went through the qualifying rounds and became a World Champion so doubling up would have absolutely nothing to do with getting the chance to become World Champion.

It was very similar at Lakeside on Friday. Swiderski was declared at No 5 for Lakeside and when Bech was injured they moved him up to No2 and used R/R for Nilsson. Swindon on the other hand declared Steve Worrall at No 2 and Craig Cook at No 3 but although neither Worrall nor Cook are injured as far as I know Swindon actually used Blackbird in place of Worrall and R/r for Cook at No 3, so in effect they used a guest for a guest and r/r for another guest. I've had a brief look at the rules they refer to "line ups" rather than riding order so it's not clear whether technically they have to declare them literal line up and nothing else or whether them term is meant to include riding order.

The word I used last time was "hopeless" . If you check the thread another poster described him as "unbelieivably poor" as a guest f or Belle Vue and also noted he was supposed to be the man in form. It is just an opinion, and riders do improve but based on what I saw that is my opinion, rightly or wrongly . It would need to be a remarkable improvement in the space of a few weeks. It can't be proved or disproved but would say these things never go on in speedway especially when qualication for the play offs is concerned ? Think Poole 2009.