chunky

I didn't remember Colin Cook riding for Poole (I did check, though), but you left out Steve Bishop, and (unbelievably) Rosco!

I know I think of some weird things, but this is one thought I had recently. I was wondering which two teams "shared" the most riders. By that, I mean riders who appeared for two specific teams, like Soren Sjosten, Dave Hemus, Ken Eyre, and Bill Powell riding for both Belle Vue and Wolves. I don't mean teams moving en bloc (Halifax to Bradford), or teams under the same management/nursery teams (Hull/Newcastle). Just off the top of my head, it would appear that Wimbledon and West Ham could be a contender (certainly as far as strength), and here is a quick list of riders who rode for both. Tony Clarke, Barry Crowson, Bob Dugard, Lloyd Goffe, Alf Hagon, Sverre Harrfeldt, Ron Howes,, Reg Luckhurst, Olle Nygren, Malcolm Simmons, Split Waterman. Thinking about it, Wimbledon and Ipswich might be better! Not the same quality, but... Ernie Baker, Pete Chapman, Steve Chilman, Mike Coomber, Alan Farmer, Gil Goldfinch, Mick Hines, Kevin Jolly, Jamie Luckhurst, Richard Knight, Peter Moore, Alan Mogridge, Kai Niemi, Olle Nygren, Alan Sage, Ali Stevens, Neville Tatum, Kevin Teager, Split Waterman. I would love to hear any others!

Firstly, I know it's YOUR thread, so you make the rules, but are we now including all riders who just made an appearance in the top division, rather than ones who actually established themselves at the higher level? Secondly, you have already listed Martin Yeates as Eastbourne. Thirdly, Kevin Holden started his career at Romford, not West Ham.

He was another waste of talent, and he pulled that "God" stunt to give himself the publicity!

He never achieved what he should have done, but he was a very capable rider, and I always liked him.

Jamie never established himself in the top division; that's why I didn't mention him.

Really, Steve? You left out Canterbury's David Mullett?

Just like to add something for information purposes... Other than the riders already mentioned, the only other rider from pre-1978 Div 2/NL to qualify for a World Final (main 16) was Doug Wyer. Steve Bastable and Tony Lomas both qualified as reserve, but neither got a ride, and neither did Andy Grahame. It took a few years, but Alan Grahame did get a couple of rides as a reserve in 1984. The next rider to start in the second tier and go on to ride in a World Final was Kenny Carter, with Mitch Shirra coming later. Norden in 1983 actually saw five such riders - Shirra, Lee, Morton, Carter, and Phil Collins - all qualify. In addition to Alan Grahame, 1984 saw Wigg getting in on the action. Simon Cross was next, then Troy Butler in 89, and Todd Wiltshire, Martin Dugard, and Richard Knight all appearing at Bradford a year later. Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock, Leigh Adams, and Chris Louis followed, and Marvyn Cox and Craig Boyce were the last two. There, we have a complete list of riders who started out in the second tier (from 1968 and beyond) who qualified for World Finals.

Happens in all sports... We had Bristow and Lowe.

Not in your eyes, apparently. Seems like you think I am a stupid tw*t...

Please elucidate... I am not who I say I am? I don't have any knowledge of speedway? What exactly do you mean I certainly do not have an agenda against you. I have stated many times that I just have a problem with stupidity. More than that, I have a problem with you accusing me of things. I have told you about that before, yet you continue to do so. Why can you not comprehend the fact that if you make accusations and lie, then people are going to take you to task. Recently, we seemed to be getting along fine, talking about England's best. Suddenly, I agree with a factual post by someone else, and you throw your toys out of the pram!

Well, you started it! I suppose that's what happens when you make a sensible post on here...

It has NOTHING to do with opinions! You need to stop make ridiculously false accusations.

You have accused me of several things tonight. Firstly, when I agreed with FACTS that falcace had posted, you immediately countered with the claim that they were NOT facts. Then you claim that my arrogance is embarrassing because I am standing by those facts. Then, there is the above statement which clearly indicates that you don't think I am giving them any credit at all, which is a total lie. You have done that several times before, most notably by screaming at me when you claimed that I said Billy Sanders was an "also-ran", which I didn't. Another totally false claim, as all I have ever done is stated that Woffinden's on-track achievements clearly put him above Collins and Lee.

You need SKILL to become a speedway world champion WHATEVER format is used. You also needed a lot more LUCK with the old system. That's why Collins wasn't a four-time World Champion. That's why Szczakiel was a World Champ. That's why a lot of the top riders missed out on World Finals on occasion.

Then please stop accusing me of things!

Stop f*cking accusing me! I have NEVER intimated that you can't say anything against Tai! There are things he has said and done of which I'm not a fan, but I can say the same about most riders. Peter Collins included. However, going by his on-track feats, it is impossible to look past his superb record. If you think it is easier for Tai to win a GP series, you may be right. However, it is easier for EVERYONE! In the old days, everybody rode in different numbers of meetings to be World Champion. At least what we have now, everybody has exactly the same chance...

When have I EVER not given those riders credit? I just prefer to judge individuals on what actually happened, and not what MIGHT have happened. I was a big fan of Collins, and he COULD have have had FOUR world titles in a row. Due to a series of unfortunate events, he didn't. I wasn't a fan of Lee, due to his dubious record. Again, he was perhaps the most talented rider of all time. However, due to his mental frailties, he never got close to fulfilling his potential. So, it doesn't matter what he COULD have achieved, he DIDN'T. Craven, I never saw, so it is difficult for me to say. He was clearly a brilliant rider, but tragedy prevented him from adding more world titles. Had he continued, he may well have won more, but we just don't know. Woffinden? Maybe not as naturally talented as Lee, and not as unfortunate as the two PC's, but through hard work and determination, and not a little skill, he has gone on to produce far and away the best World Championship record of ANY British rider. It is that record that makes him - in my view - the best British rider of all time. And he is not finished yet. In view of my comments above - and what I have posted previously - I fail to see how you can keep accusing me of not giving credit to other riders.

Yet you feel that YOU know better? That ONE World Title makes someone better than a three-time World Champ with a far superior record? Of course, Collins must be better than Woffinden because YOU think so. Of course, Lee must be better than Woffinden because you think Tai is an *rsehole. I have frequently stated on here how supremely talented Michael Lee was, but he wasted it. Plus, Lee's record of "questionable" decision-making and unreliability far outweighs anything that you feel Woffinden may have done wrong.

You tell me ANYTHING that falcace said in his post, that is NOT true.

Oh, I'm perfectly calm! I just don't get why you are so offended by me agreeing with a factual post made by someone else. Or why you are AGAIN accusing me of things that aren't true.

I don't like it when... 1) People think that opinions outweigh fact and... 2) When people make false accusations - like you frequently do

Why do you get so offended when someone has the temerity to disagree with your arrogance and biased opinions? I know you believe that your opinion is far more important than truth and fact, but again, there is nothing that falcace said that is not true.

What has that got to do with anything? FYI, bloody autocorrect changed "falcace" to false, so I don't know if that threw you...

Opinions don't matter here; FACT does. Everything falcace said is true. You are right when you say Tai never ever won a one-off final; he wasn't riding then...