chunky

Norbold mentioned it just two posts before you asked, and it was mentioned again a few posts before that! It was 30 December 1934... Steve

Not "Charles" Waterman? Steve

You know, if you are an anorak, age isn't important! Hmmm, what would my specialist subject be? Obviously, anything to do with the Dons, but Individual World Finals and the British League 1965-1990 would also be good for me... Steve

Those were the two that got me! What really p*ssed me off was the fact that I have only recently read norbold's "Speedway in London", and should have known the New Cross one... I'm so dreadfully embarrassed! Steve

This SHOULD be a no-brainer, but it IS speedway we are talking about! Just throwing this out there... A rider is credited with an appearance if he is at the track, and ready to ride, okay? If this happens once, it could happen again, right? Therefore, a rider can be considered an "ever-present" without even starting a race! Only in speedway... 😀 Steve

Very good question... I've often wondered about that. Steve Edit: just checked back on here, and it was in 2009 when people had started seeing the trailer, and it was supposedly "close" to being released. Then, in 2011, it appears that the production company was dissolved.

"Not for debate"??? Sorry, do I have to ask your permission to speak??? Steve

We actually covered this a few years ago on here! Neil Evitts appeared a few times for Stoke in 1980 while he was only 15, and Robbie McGregor rode a couple for Glasgow when he was 14... Steve

Just reverting back to the Pedersen vs Gollob comparison for a second... In DIRECT GP competition (taking the thirteen years when both were full-time), it does make interesting reading. They both rode in 131 GP's, with Pedersen scoring 1559 points, and Gollob 1510 (a massive difference of 0.37 points per GP). Pedersen had 3 world titles, and a silver to Gollob's 1 win, a silver and two bronzes. Gollob's lowest finish was 9th, while Pedersen finished lower than that on four occasions. Taking into account individual GP's, Gollob won 44 medals (17 gold, 11 silver, 16 bronze) to Pedersen's 38 (13 gold, 12 silver, 13 bronze). So, Pedersen may have won more world titles, but Gollob appears to be slightly better consistency-wise. Even taking into account their GP performances outside of the head-to-head, there is little to separate them; Gollob had a silver and two bronzes to Pedersen's brace of bronzes. So, virtually nothing to choose between the pair, and I think that gives me enough of a case to consider Gollob the better of the two. Steve

Nope... Facts tell us that Pedersen won more World Titles than Gollob. I happen to believe that Gollob is perhaps the greatest rider I have ever seen. There is a difference between how many titles someone won and where those titles place them in a list. Then Pedersen is better than Moore, Woffinden is better than Young, Williams is better than Collins, Szczakiel is better than Adams... No, you don't win multiple World Championships by being a no-hoper, but just because somebody didn't win as many as someone else doesn't necessarily make them inferior. If you use simple statistics to rate riders, then Moore, Craven, Young, Penhall, Knutson, Wilkinson, and Collins would never even be considered for a place in an all-time Top Ten list... Steve

I cannot argue that point, but again, that could well be a reflection of the way the sport itself has changed, rather than it being a simple drop in the quality of the competition. If it were two-valves on cinder tracks, I don't think Greg would be in contention, but modern day speedway is more akin to road-racing than dirt-track racing. Still, it is all conjecture... Steve

You beat me to it... As much as I don't like the guy, it is difficult to argue with the eighth best record of all-time. Not like it's a one-off, is it? Again, it's all conjecture. I agree with Nygren when he says he doesn't feel the riders have the same skills as those in previous eras, due to the changes in machinery and track surfaces, but as has been said before, the top riders would have stood out in any era. Steve

Don't forget, he had a terrible year last year too, finishing W - A - Y down the list - in second. It's clear he is now out of his depth... Steve

Thank you for your comment! In addition to "helping" team-mates in individual competition, that Mauger incident is one that has always stuck in my memory. People seem to pick and choose what is and what isn't acceptable... Honestly, I don't feel that "helping" a team-mate is the same as "rigging" races. Obviously, the Penhall incident is still fresh in the minds of many, but everyone seems to have forgotten - or have chosen to ignore - the sight of Olsen waving Gundersen back to allow Bo Petersen to qualify for a run-off against PC and Andy Grahame... Steve

So, it IS okay to do that, then? Just make sure you don't get caught!!! Steve

Assuming you are talking about the infamous incident at White City, then you must also feel the same way about Olsen, Gundersen, Mauger, Betts, and countless other riders who have done exactly the same thing? You do raise some interesting points. I am not sure if there has been a lack of genuine world-class riders, or perhaps a lot of us are just living in the past? When we think of "superstars", it is easy to come up with Moore, Fundin, Nielsen, Collins, Mauger, Penhall etc, but it does seem that we are reluctant - VERY reluctant - to accept that some of the modern era riders are the equivalent. I do accept your point about the consistency, but is that because the riders aren't as good, or is it that there are so many at the same level? Of course, it could be - and this is my own personal feeling - that the tracks and the machinery have a much bigger impact than we really want to believe. Steve

If you are asking, "Does his behaviour negate his ability and achievements?", then the answer is a resounding "NO"! No matter how hard you try, Penhall proved himself on the track. Same with Carter. Most of us know that there are those out there who want his name expunged from speedway history. Tough. What he did was wrong, very wrong, but his record on the track speaks for itself. I really don't understand why people get so butthurt when somebody has the audacity to use logic, reason, and FACT to substantiate their position. You admit yourself that Carter was brilliant, but cannot bring yourself to say the same about Penhall? So, are you saying that it is okay to murder your wife and still be rated as a speedway great, but to retire mid-season to take up other employment is absolutely unforgivable? Steve

So was Penhall... Better than the riders you rated above him... But it has been stated on the BSF that he is not even ONE of the best Brits... Steve

Same thing... People don't rate Tai - and disregard his ability AND achievements - because they don't like him. You disregard Penhall's ability AND his achievements because you don't like him. Yeah, nobody else has ever retired from the sport mid-season... I couldn't stand Carter, and I don't like NP either, but I can't dismiss them just because of my personal feelings. Steve

Coming from someone who doesn't rate Bruce Penhall as a great... Steve

Interesting to see all the online comments regarding Lewis Hamilton today. With a fourth World Championship under his belt (more than any other British driver), he is being lauded as an all-time great. Tai Woffinden, on the other hand, has two World Championships to his name, along with a second and a third (more than any other British rider), yet there are speedway fans who don't even consider him even ONE of the best Brits. Sigh... Steve

Not at the top of the list, I know, but Johnsy deserves a mention for 16 years at Plough Lane. However, I know not every season was "full-time", but Thommo appeared for Hackney in 20 consecutive seasons. Steve

Good call, norbold! Regarding Phil Bishop, his is one of my most prized autographs. I met him at Plough Lane not long before Lokeren... Steve

Arthur Atkinson rode in 1928, and was still riding in 1953. Steve

It was post-WWI...😜 Steve