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Firstly, I think it is harsh to even think about directly comparing the two. Since the sport first began, there has been organised - and high quality - league speedway at numerous venues across Britain; you can't say that about New Zealand at all. Of course, the late sixties and early seventies was a real boom period for the Kiwis, but I think that was the result of the post-war success on the world stage, albeit due to a relatively small number of riders. Ronnie and Briggo were the main men, but of course, Geoff Mardon, Trevor Redmond, and Ron Johnston were quality performers. Still, it wasn't until Ivan followed in their footsteps that there was a major influx of New Zealanders in British speedway. In addition to those already mentioned, look at who appeared in the BL in the first ten or so years of the BL. Wayne Briggs, Colin McKee, Graham Coombes, and Bill Andrew were followed by Bruce Cribb, Allan Brown, Colin Tucker, Bill Moulin, Bernie Lagrosse, Graeme Smith, Rick Timmo, Terry Shearer, Dave Whittaker, Murray Burt, Frank Shuter, Gary Peterson, Roger Wright, Colin Farquharson, Larry Ross, Mike Fullerton, Robin Adlington etc (plus non-natives Andrews, Gifford, and Shirra). None of them world-beaters (Ross and Shirra were closest), but all accomplished riders, but above all, a steady supply of talent. Then, by the mid-80's, things had changed, and other than David Bargh, and the two Marks - Thorpe and Lyndon - there was very little in the way of quantity or quality. I know things go in cycles, but it is disturbing just how it got, and in particular, how not one rider of any real potential has emerged. Yes, things aren't great in the UK, but I don't think there is any reason to compare it to what has happened in New Zealand. Steve

At the risk of breaking up "Sidney vs Iris - Round Two", I have to agree with Doug here. What made Lee and Carter so good - and so exciting - was their mentality and temperament. It was also their downfall. As Doug said, a different mindset may have helped, but that would mean they were a completely different person, so it is all totally meaningless now. Once Nielsen got his head out of his backside (on the big occasions), it was his temperament that made him the rider he was, and for that reason, he is one of the FEW I would put up their with Mauger and Fundin. Penhall absolutely loved his speedway, but while it's okay to say that the prospect of a successful acting career was a catalyst, I think it was clear that by 1982, he wasn't the same rider - or the same person - he had been in previous years. Of course, he was desperate to win in L.A., but the passion wasn't there. Again, like Knutson, he may have been thinking he should get out relatively unscathed, and there's no telling just how much Denny Pyeatt's tragic death influenced his final decision. Regarding Sanders... Sidney, Doug NEVER ONCE claimed that he wasn't a "very good rider"; he said that he was never convinced he was "really a top top rider". I agree 100%, and Billy was one of my faves. "Top top" riders were Mauger, Fundin, Nielsen etc, and while Billy was always there or thereabouts, he was never quite able to break into the top echelon. Steve

I am not old enough to remember seeing Knutty ride, but judging by other comments I have read over the years, I wouldn't necessarily argue that it would be stretching it to say that he was better than Olsen. Ole can certainly be considered an all-time great, but yes, he could very erratic, and perhaps a little temperamental; I've never heard those terms when discussing Knutson. Five successive top 5 finishes in World Finals would support that. What I would suspect (of course it's just a wild stab) is that, after a disappointing performance in the 1966 Final, he just figured it would be a good time to get out - particularly in light of E I Addio's last paragraph above... Steve

Unlike many on this forum, I knew Bryn personally - and had done so for nearly forty years. I can't really add anything to what has already been said. Speedway has lost one of its greatest fans - and greatest assets. R.I.P. mate... Steve

Split was the first one I thought of... ...and Jack was the second! Honestly! Steve

Come on, think of how many more we could add to that list! Sad, really sad... Steve

I do try to use my head rather than my heart, particularly when it involves a "genuine" contender like Tommy. Had he continued the form he was showing at the time of his tragic accident - even for two or three years - he would have been a definite on my list, but potential is a difficult thing to judge. Of course, after we lost Tommy, your boy Martin was the most popular rider at Plough Lane in 1976! Funny thing is that, while Tommy showed perhaps a little more brilliance in his short career, the longevity and consistency of Martin's career would realistically see him classed as "better" than Tommy - in MY opinion. Steve

Sincerest apologies for being "no real use" in your quest to analyse... Steve

Of course not! It's my old mate Ray! Steve

When I said "BL era", I meant the years 1965-1990... My list for that would be (in no order): 1 - Ivan Mauger 2 - Barry Briggs 3 - Bruce Penhall 4 - Ole Olsen 5 - Hans Nielsen 6 - Erik Gundersen 7 - Phil Crump 8 - Nigel Boocock 9 - Ken McKinlay 10 - Peter Collins 11 - Eric Boocock 12 - Michael Lee 13 - Malcolm Simmons 14 - Anders Michanek 15 - Kenny Carter 16 - Torbjorn Harrysson 17 - Gote Nordin 18 - Ray Wilson 19 - Dave Jessup 20 - Jim Airey Honourable mentions for Morton (not Wal or Val), Sanders, Ashby, Knudsen, Autrey, Bengt Jansson, Shawn Moran, Sigalos, Louis, and Sjosten. Steve

I tend to put less emphasis on team results than on individual/pairs, which is one reason I didn't factor the WTC medals into Pedersen's rating. Not taking anything away from Jan O., but when you are alongside Nielsen, Gundersen, and Knudsen, chances are you will win! Again, it is partly a longevity issue. Bot than anyone here would be likely to include him, but let's look at Zenon Plech... Like Jan O., he had a second and a third in World Finals (and eight appearances), a silver and three bronzes from World Pairs, and a silver and four bronzes in World Team Cup! Impressive by anyone's standards! A BLRC title is impressive, but Les Collins had one of those, along with a World Final silver. Again, it depends HOW you want to make your case... Jerzy Szczakiel had a World Final gold, a World Pairs gold (and a maximum), and a WTC bronze! Of course, if the list was 1969-1998, he would have been a definite on my list! Extend it into a simple post-war list, and he disappears again, as we make room for Hancock, Rickardsson, Gollob, Crump minor,and perhaps the other Pedersen! I do get your point about Boocock not starring at international level, but he is one of a very select few to post a 10+ BL average for that period of time; he was a dominant force - with a British Championship under his belt. I also felt the same as you regarding Muller; I desperately wanted to include him. Just a thought, how about a "BL era" list??? Steve

So, here's my list from 1969-1988 (in no particular order)... 1 - Barry Briggs 2 - Ole Olsen 3 - Ivan Mauger 4 - Anders Michanek 5 - Erik Gundersen 6 - Hans Nielsen 7 - Peter Collins 8 - Kenny Carter 9 - Shawn Moran 10 - Bruce Penhall 11 - Michael Lee All of these were named by gustix, Sidney, and waihekeaces1, so no arguments there... The one rider voted by all three that I omitted was Jan O. Pedersen; I simply felt that he still hadn't established himself at the VERY top by 1988. 12 - Malcolm Simmons 13 - Billy Sanders 14 - Dave Jessup 15 - Dennis Sigalos 16 - Phil Crump These five were named by two of the three voters. 17 - Scott Autrey 18 - Chris Morton Both received a single vote. 19 - John Louis 20 - Eric Boocock My two additions. Louis was not only one of the dominant forces in British speedway, but had some international highlights also. The younger Boocock's domestic form was quite simply superb, and his figures stood up against those of Mauger, Briggo, or whoever. Steve

Dont sell yourself short! Remember that "knowledge" (like this) is generally something people have wanted to learn because of their interest, and that interest leads to us forming opinions. Plus, a lot of the stuff we "know" is not actually "knowledge"; it is simply a case of knowing where to look for the answers! Steve

Don't listen to 'em, mate; I still think Knutsson should be included in your list! The fact that he never rode during that period is inconsequential... Steve

I wondered that too? Even though each rider is only listed once, Fundin won ONE World Title in the 50's, and FOUR in the 60's! I would have included him in the latter... From the 40's/50's, Brian Crutcher wouldn't have been a bad replacement for Fundin, Steve

... or we could move here instead... Steve

Wow! You have a good memory! What about that guy from Cradley? Saliva Brown??? Steve

Roger Johns, Kevin Holden, Alan Grahame, Andy Grahame, Steve Bastable, Simon Wigg, Les Collins, Phil Collins, Neil Collins, Kevin Smith, Richard Knight... Steve

Ain't that the truth? The sad, sad, truth... Think back to the quality of the riders who couldn't even make it to the British Final? Sure, there were only a small handful of real "superstars", but the strength in depth was incredible. Steve

Makes for interesting chants and war cries, though... "GIVE US A THREE..." Steve

Of course we care, poor Bob. There, there... Just tell me though, who would you leave out of your original 7 for Jack? Then again, I suppose there would be a strong case for two of your greatest servants, Jon Erskine and Norman Strachan. Or Phil Herne, and the great Tormod Langli! Steve

This is where we can get a little confused... Is this thread designed to be a "Top Seven", or a "Favourite Seven"? Yes, there is a helluva difference. I was a huge fan of "Mad Wellie", but sadly, there is no way he would even be close to being in a "Top" seven for Swindon, and of course, the same could be said for Peter Glanz at Reading. With regard to the Robins, other strong contenders for a "Top" seven would be Simmo, Jimmy Nilsen, Tadeusz Teodorowicz, Ian Williams, George White, Brian Brett, and of course, Jason Crump. Oh, and Jan Andersson, For a "Favourite" team, you could have Andrew Silver, Rosco, Mad Wellie, Erik Stenlund, Mike Keen, Norman Hunter, Rolf Gramstad. Steve

Surprised that nobody has mentioned Leicester, and their wonderful team leathers from 1969/70. Let's not forget the Rye House leathers of the 70's sponsored by Infradex! Eastbourne wore a team jersey (light blue with yellow sleeves) in 1970, and two years later, Halifax wore red and white leathers (with a blue stripe on the leg). Of course, King's Lynn wore yellow jerseys with green stripes on the arms in the late 70's, and of all the jersey-wearers, I think they looked the best. However, all of the above were predated by Newport 1964 (where were you, Bobbath???), with black and yellow hoops... Finally, in reply to Tony's comment, "Today, all the riders in a team basically look the same", is it just me, or have the riding styles evolved into a largely generic style? Look at a pic of four riders on the bend, and they generally look identical. Where did the individual styles go? After all, when they all wore black leathers, it was no different to wearing a team suit!!! Steve

Even if there had been a Commonwealth Final back then - with the qualifiers coming from a separate series of meetings - whose responsibility would it have been to run those events? There were no governing bodies in Aussie and NZ back then, so it would have still been down to the British authorities. If they were going to go to all that trouble, then it was just as easy to lump them all into a single qualifying series of events, which they did. Also, consider that there were an enormous number of Commonwealth riders in action in the UK back then. Of course people didn't complain about it being a joke in those days. Firstly, people weren't so intolerant and resentful in those days, and secondly, it was all they knew! It wasn't just a case of being in the World Championship, either; they represented us in team events too. It's just the way it was then, and few - if any - had any real problem with it... Look at all the things that were acceptable in the old days, that would be unthinkable now. That's not necessarily because they were "wrong", but it's all the idiots, activists, and the perpetually offended that want everyting THEIR way today. Just the way that society has gone. Steve Steve

As an independent championship, that would have been fine, but where would that have fitted in with the World Championship? The British Final was just one step on the stairway to the World Final. What about the South African riders? How many South Africans were active outside of their own country during the period, or even before then? Of course, both Henry Long (1952) and Doug Davies (1955) qualified via the British rounds. As a sporting nation, South Africa was totally isolated from the rest of the world from 1960 onwards. Steve