speedyguy

Good to see Pete Jarman's name. He used to live near to me in the late 1950s and in the early 1960s when he rode for Stoke. I had several invites to travel to Stoke from Brockley in south east London where we both lived, but the trip never materialised. Also remember before that Pete and Colin Gooddy as cycle speedway riders in south east London in the very early 1950s. I rode against both of them a couple of times - but never ever finished in front of them. Two great London characters who sadly seem to have been forgtotten. Sadly, have no details of their whereabout these days.

This is excellent. Let's hope we get the final answer. Langley - wasn't Bill at West Ham the same night. Garrar - now who could that be here. We need a speedway Sherlock Holmes here. Nice to get it tidied up as it was the last ever speedway meeting at the Palace. PS: Since the original answer, Dr Watson (!) tells me that Garrar could well-be George Gower, who was a 1939 Palace rider.

Now we are getting somewhere. Obviously Bill was not at Crystal Palace that day. His reference to Johnnie Hoskins may have been a lapse of memory because of his age at the time of interview, ie 91 years. Bill probably became confused because Johnnie while the West Ham promoter in 1940, was the New Cross promoter in the late 1950s-early 1960s. Now we need details, if they, exist about that White Monday Crystal Palace meeting. Can anyone help in that direction please? PS: I also have a query about one of the 1930s Palace teams. A rider named as S Pitcher is listed. Was this Bill Pitcher, later with Harringay and Belle Vue? He had a nickname as 'Skid' and I think this is the named S Pitcher. Bill's brother Vic was also a rider in pre and immediate post war years.

Pete Gay did start with Norm Unger and Wee Mcgregor at Coventry. At sometime, either late 1950s or early 1960s, they also raced in France for the Victor Boston Troupe. They were later followed by George Bason, Pete Rogers, Geoff Harris and Stan Tebby. What's this got to do with Crayford? Well Bason, along with Mick Mitchell and Keith Harvey, I was nonce told, raced 'on a speedway at Crayford' in 1938 or 1939.

I now believe it was the second Crystal Palace 1940 that was won by Bill Longley. This is a quote from the Australian Speedway World dated March 2003. Bill said (he was 91 at the time and obviously a little confused by then - ref Johnnie Hoskins!): "By May 1940 the war had been going for eight months and the last speedway meeting to be cnducted in London was at New Cross by then-promoter Johnnie Hoskins - the London Cup. I won with a maximum." My view is that it was NOT New Cross but Crystal Palace. If there was an involvement by Hoskins it was because he was working in conjunction with ENSA the forces entertainment group. If Longley was correct, it means that an unrecorded took place at New Cross. Therefore, what did take place at the second Crystal Palace meeting? Isn't this intriguing?

I take it this is Jack Bibby Mark Two and not the Australian rider of that name?

I also believe there was racing at Cowley Stadium Oxford in the early part of 1940. For all that, what about my query on the second Crystal Palace meeting - and if Bill Longley DID win a London Riders Championship there in 1940? Many thanks to anyone who can help.

When was the last Crystal Palace meeting in 1940 and what was it? I read in an Australian publication this was at Easter 1940 when Johnnie Hoskins promoted a London Riders Championship, won by Bill Longley, and where Keith Harvey set a new track record. However,' Homes of British Speedway' does not mention this meeting but cites: on March 25 1940 the Holiday Cup won by Arthur Atkinson, then another Hoiday Cup meeting was held on Whit Monday, May 13, but does not name a winner. Could this latter event be the meeting where Longley and Harvey were involved? I also believe if Johnnie Hoskins was involved as promoter, he was doing it for the army entertainment group ENSA? I am completely puzzled.

Very sad news indeed. Wally Green was a great post-war favourite of mine. I remember him well as a team member in 1947 and 1948 for Eastbourne and Hastings initially, then of course the epic years in West Ham's colours. Yet another of the sport's all-time greats has passed over. RIP Wally Green.

Oh dear! That reminds of an 'exciting period' on another site this time last year...including an incident with a pressure group in a phone box? Just a joke, old friend. PS: I have just looked at page 113 of Ron Hoare's 'Speedway Panorama' and you look spot on with the site reference. Is that background towards Thicket Road I wonder?

Kevin Teager is now in car racing, driving non-contact Stock Rods and 2-litre Hot Rods. Besides Crayford, he also had a spell at Wimbledon - among other tracks. And it's at Wimbledon Stadium - among other circuits - that he also races and wins in cars these days.

I understand that Vic was Southampton captain for a while in 1929 when just 17 years old. This is what Ron Hoare wrote about Vic Collins back in 1979: "Memories of the old Southampton Saints are conjured up by the name of Vic Collins. Vic started his motorcycle career on a BSA road bike, joined the Southamptopn & District Motorcycle Club and in October, 1928, was riding at the new Wymering Park racecourse where he won the Scratch race for bikes in the 600cc class "In the same month Banister Court opened its doors to dirt track racing and in the following year Vic became a member of the original Southampton side, with Jimmy Hayes, Tommy Cullis, Clarrie Eldridge, Ceceil Bounds and many other wll-known southern based riders. "Despite breaking a leg in the early part of 1930, Vic came back tremendously to win the Golden Gauntlet Championship at his home track's final meeting from a class field including Tiger Stevenson, Roger Frogley, Arthur Warwick, Ron Johnson and Reg Bounds. "Vic was another of the early riders who bridged the gap between pre-and-post-war speedway and he made a comeback in 1947 to turn out for his old side when they re-entered the league." So, with that reputation, why did Vic Collins ride in a 1946 novice race at Wimbledon?

According to Speedway Star, the main tracks seem to be Palmerston North (North Island) and Ruapuna at Christchurch (South Island). Other tracks are Moore Park (Christchurch), Invercargill and Nelson. But remember - speedway runs on meetings as a support class to sprint cars, midget cars and stock cars at NZ raceways.

Oh dear!

If you want a definitive placement for the Crystal Palace track, read "Homes of British Speedway" (Robert Bamford and John Jarvis). It says "...Messrs Mockford and Smith, trading as London Motor Sports Ltd, laid a dirt-track around the pitch of their tenants, Corinthians FC, at a cost of £5,025." This book carries enough authority to confound the other placements for the track in my opinion.

Some time back there was a query regarding Mick Piquet of Wimbledon. I can't find the original posting from born_2_b_mad (?) about him. We did establish his immediate post-war credentials at Plough Lane. I have now found that he also rode for Rayleigh at their opening meeting in 1948. Hope this helps.

Perhaps High Beech just got all the publicity as the 'start of ditrt track racing' because it happened in the early part of the year, in winter, when the Press had nothing else to cover. And, more importantly, none of the reporters knew anything about the sport's origins until High Beech happened! So they all used the angle that it was something new happening... PS: Just 'done a google' with 'UK horse trotting racing' and lots of sites were listed. They may provide more contacts for the information you seek. I see the sport is also called harness and alternatively stndardbred racing. Couldn't see anything about tracks ever being used for dirt-track racing, but somewhere someone on their sites might know a man who does!

I remember seeing a trotting race at Rayleigh (yes I used to go further than Wimbledon!) Trouble is not certain whether it was late 1950s or early 1970s! Getting old and confused, but taking a chance would say it was the late 1950s. Intriguing subject: I also saw trotting on a track also used for speedway when in Holland (another outside Wimbledon venture!) in about 1956. This track was somewhere between The Hague and Rotterdam.

We are getting somewhere in regard to Geoff Allott. It was probably in 1948 or 1949 when Geoff appeared. Is there a chance he was Tommy's son? Geoff was only a novice or second-half rider at Sheffield.

While it was a great read, there were some errors in the Lionel Crossley book on Crystal Palace speedway. His estimates of the crowd for the initial path races don't seem to tie in with a book published recently about the Crystal Palace as a motor sport venue. I refer to 'Motor Racing at Crystal Palace - London's own circuit' by SS Collins (Velocebooks). Written, I understand, with a lot of assistance from the Crystal Palace Foundation.

Path racing: here's some info I have just found that may start a guide into what path racing may have been. It's all old and very dated material. They are two separate items of source: (1): "In 1926 motorcycle enthusiasts led by Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith, formed a group called London Motor Sports Ltd, and having identified Crystal Palace Park as a racing venue, were eventually allowed to run a meeting on May 21st 1927 over a 1 mile course of the parks paths. Over 10,000 people turned up to the meeting each paying 1 shilling plus 2d tax (approx. 6p). Following an incident during the meeting, several spectators were injured by a sidecar and questions were asked in Parliament about the incident. By the second meeting £500 had been invested in crash barriers, widening and general improvement of the circuit. Some 16,000 attended this meeting and the scene was set for racing to rival cricket, football, and greyhound racing at the venue." (2): "Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith were the first to stage any form of circuit racing at Crystal Palace when they introduced path racing in 1927. The first meting was on May 21 and featured 10 races over a course of loose surface straights and tarred bends, mainly in an area near to the present Crystal Park Maze.It provided some spectacular racing for an estimated 10,000 crowd who paid a shilling each (5p in modern currency) with riders racing in 175cc, 250cc, 350cc and 500cc solo races and also races for sidecars."

That image - when was the photo taken I wonder? Not 1914. That must be the speedway track - or has this fact been posted before? For a track that last ran in 1940, we are showing a great deal of interest. That's as it should be - the saying (or something similar) is 'ignore the past and there's no future!' That's rather profound.

Sorry to sandwich you 'Parsloes 1928 nearly' but items kept popping up after I had posted one. I hope you will agree there is some interest in them in regard to he old Crystal Palace speedway team? I am really looking forward to reading the article by 'Donsking' on this subject.

Reading the postings I extracted from elsewhere on google, there seems to be some errors in what others have posted in them. The second division team was in 1939 not 1937. The track did not become derelict after 1934 - but did stage some August Bank Holiday meetings in subsequent years. The last meeting there was at Easter 1940 when Bill Longley won the London Championship (?). And in 1934, 1935 and 1938 there was other motor sport activity at the track.

Here's another piece via google: "In 1926 motorcycle enthusiasts led by Fred Mockford and Cecil Smith, formed a group called London Motor Sports Ltd, and having identified Crystal Palace Park as a racing venue, were eventually allowed to run a meeting on May 21st 1927 over a 1 mile course of the parks paths. Over 10,000 people turned up to the meeting each paying 1 shilling plus 2d tax (approx. 6p). Following an incident during the meeting, several spectators were injured by a sidecar and questions were asked in Parliament about the incident. By the second meeting £500 had been invested in crash barriers, widening and general improvement of the circuit. Some 16,000 attended this meeting and the scene was set for racing to rival cricket, football, and greyhound racing at the venue. Towards the end of 1927, Lional Wills (of WD&HO Wills Tobacco) approached Mockford and Smith with a suggestion to try the new Australian sport of speedway at Crystal Palace to supplement the path racing. The football stadium, home of Corinthians football club, was refurbished to provide an oval track at a cost of £5000, and some 30,000 people turned up for the first meeting and within a year some 70 tracks had sprung up throughout the country. In 1929 a league was formed and The Glaziers finished 4th, with Stamford Bridge being champions. By 1934, crowds were falling and having been refused floodlights for evening meetings, Mockford and Smith moved the team to New Cross, and the track fell into disrepair. Speedway was revived in 1937 for the new second division, but they could not recapture the glory days of the Glaziers, or match the 71,311 attendance of the 1930 Easter Monday meeting, and as the war loomed in 1939, speedway came to an end."